Most CEOs facing a growth stall reach for the same lever: more effort. More outreach, more campaigns, more hours from the leadership team. Diane Moura, founder and CEO of ZenChange Marketing, has spent years watching that instinct fail. Her diagnosis isn't that these companies aren't trying hard enough. It's that they're applying tactical effort to a structural problem, and no amount of additional hustle closes that gap.
Her clients tend to fall into two categories, and the distinction matters for how a CEO should respond. Some are established companies — twenty or thirty years old — that grew steadily, saw a spike, and then watched revenue flatten without a clear cause. Others face the opposite problem: growth that outpaced the organization's capacity to absorb it. Diane calls the second category a "happy break," but the label doesn't soften the operational reality. The market has told these companies something has to change, and the response can't be to simply add headcount and hope the strain resolves itself: "we don't necessarily just want to throw people at the problem. So, how do we optimize it?"
Diane's read on why these breaks happen is specific to how companies grow. Early on, a founder is the connective tissue for the whole business — present in every conversation, correcting course in real time. As the company scales, leadership layers get added, but the underlying operating structure often doesn't get rebuilt to match. "The hiring tends to outpace the structure," she says, and for a while that's tolerable. The company can run collaborative, even loose, without real cost. The cost shows up later, when the founder is no longer in every room and there's no process built to hold the standard the founder once enforced personally.
That produces a familiar and costly cycle: leaders delegate, results slip, and the founder reverts to founder mode, diving back into the operational detail they'd tried to hand off. Moura frames this as a leadership-capacity mismatch as much as a process failure — companies that hire junior support beneath senior leaders end up requiring more direct involvement from those leaders, not less, because the next layer down isn't positioned to carry real ownership. The tradeoff CEOs are actually making when they under-invest in that next layer isn't lower payroll. It's a permanent ceiling on how much they can step back.
When Diane Moura is brought in, the engagement doesn't start with execution. It starts with a structured, workshop-based reset — leaders convened, often over a weekend, working through go-to-market, target customer, competitive positioning, and messaging before anyone touches a deliverable. The reasoning is direct: companies stuck in this pattern have usually been doing a number of things tactically, but they haven't stepped back to ask whether the strategy underneath those tactics still matches a market that has moved.
Out of that reset comes a defined plan — typically framed around a twelve-month horizon, with an intensive 90-day sprint that addresses the highest-priority gaps first: refreshed messaging, updated sales materials, and in some cases, organizational changes to the team itself. What happens next is itself a decision point. Some clients take the plan and execute it internally. Others use ZenChange as a fractional marketing function to fill capability gaps the reset exposed — a decision that hinges less on preference than on whether the internal team can actually carry what the strategy now demands.
Ask Diane where these resets get stuck, and the answer isn't technical. It's personal. Her clearest example: a long-tenured employee — she calls her Susie — who has owned a function like social media for a decade, is well-liked, and whose role doesn't map cleanly onto where the new strategy needs to go. The instinct to protect Susie is understandable, and left unmanaged, it's exactly what stalls a reset. Moura's approach isn't to remove her. It's to redesign the role: Susie keeps contributing where her strengths hold up — capturing raw content, for instance — while a partner or internal function takes over the parts of the job, like analytics and distribution, that have outgrown her scope.
The pattern generalizes beyond any one employee. Loyalty, unclear ownership of outcomes, and internal politics are what most often keep a reset from taking hold, even when the strategic direction is sound. "We won't have really broken through to that change," Diane says of resets that skip this step. Systems and SOPs, by contrast, are comparatively easy to fix. The harder work — and the work CEOs are most tempted to avoid — is renegotiating who owns what, and being honest about which roles no longer fit the company the strategy is trying to build.
Diane applies the same diagnostic discipline to how her firm adopts AI internally. Her operating rule: if a recurring task takes longer than twenty minutes, it gets re-examined — not necessarily shortened, but rebuilt so the system delivers what's needed automatically rather than requiring a person to reassemble it each time. The distinguishing signal for buy-in, she notes, is when a team member sees a tool remove something they didn't want to do in the first place. That's a different mechanism than mandate-driven adoption, and it's the one she says actually sticks.
Her broader caution is about expertise, not capability. "I have marketing context because of all my decades of experience," she says — and that context is what lets her extract a usable result from AI. Without equivalent domain expertise, the same tool produces plausible-looking output with real gaps the user has no way to detect. For CEOs evaluating where to deploy AI inside their own organizations, that's the operative test: the tool doesn't replace expertise. It requires it.
Diane's framework rejects the idea that stalled growth calls for more of the same activity, only faster. The companies that get unstuck are the ones willing to pause tactical execution long enough to ask whether the strategy underneath it still matches the market — and then to make the harder call on people and ownership that the answer usually demands. Technology changes the tools available to a scaling company. It doesn't change what determines whether a reset holds: clear structure, honest ownership, and leadership willing to make the people decisions a strategy shift actually requires.
Diane Moura is Founder and CEO of ZenChange Marketing, a marketing agency and fractional marketing partner for services-based businesses. Before founding ZenChange, she spent decades in corporate marketing roles working with Fortune 500 companies, giving her direct experience with how marketing operates at scale. Connect with her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianemoura/
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Jeff Holman is a CEO advisor, legal strategist, and founder of Intellectual Strategies. With years of experience guiding leaders through complex business and legal challenges, Jeff equips CEOs to scale with confidence by blending legal expertise with strategic foresight. Connect with him on LinkedIn.
Intellectual Strategies provides innovative legal solutions for CEOs and founders through its fractional legal team model. By offering proactive, integrated legal support at predictable costs, the firm helps leaders protect their businesses, manage risk, and focus on growth with confidence.
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The Breakout CEO podcast brings you inside the pivotal moments of scaling leaders. Each week, host Jeff Holman spotlights breakout stories of scaling CEOs—showing how resilience, insight, and strategy create pivotal inflection points and lasting growth.
Listen and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform:
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Want to be a guest—or know a scaling CEO with a breakout story to share? Apply directly at go.intellectualstrategies.com.
TRANSCRIPT SUMMARY:
00:00 - Personal Brand Reality
01:48 - Scaling Leadership Challenges
05:46 - Building Zen Change
12:09 - Early Entrepreneur Lessons
16:35 - Leaders Must Be Visible
20:45 - Personal Branding Explained
25:37 - Building Company 2.0
30:29 - People Create Bottlenecks
33:24 - Creating Team Buy-In
35:49 - Leveraging AI Internally
40:17 - Context Makes AI Better
45:48 - AI And Human Potential
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Diane Moura (00:00)
Personal brand does not mean that you need to become a Kardashian. They need to take a step back and revisit the strategy. If anything is going to take you longer than 20 minutes, we need to take another look at it. The organizations that remembered that tend to outperform the ones that are chasing the newest trend.
Jeff Holman (00:17)
Welcome back to the Breakout CEO podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Holman, with Intellectual Strategies. And I get to talk to a lot of CEOs behind the scenes. And I can't tell their stories because as an attorney, that's all confidential. But we get to talk to the CEOs and the advisors who advise the CEOs. And so we have a lot of fun on the podcast, kind of sharing insights and experiences and things that we try to we try to put into the perspective of what I call the breakout framework. And today we've got a a great guest, maybe a special guest, even because
Deanne Mora is with us today. Deanne, I I've been on your show, and now I've got you on mine, and we're just sharing expertise. It's really great to have you here.
Diane Moura (00:55)
Absolutely. It's fun to be on the other side of the microphone.
Jeff Holman (00:59)
Well, I know that when we talked, you know, you asked me a bunch of questions and I probably dominated the conversation. So today's your turn. We're gonna we're gonna ask you some questions and get some of your expertise out out. Specifically for the people who are out there scaling businesses, right? We like the CEOs who are in that stage, it's a tough stage, I think. It tell me what you think about the and I I don't know, this is just off the cuff. Maybe maybe you got thoughts, maybe you don't.
W when you work with clients who are kind of in that say five to fifty million dollar range, they're CEOs, they're building, they're kind of still maybe working out some, you know, some of the kinks in their business model, but they're also trying to grow it. And like like how do you how do you look at them and and how would you describe that type of CEO and the issues they deal with?
Diane Moura (01:48)
Yeah, I mean a true consultant fashion, I am gonna say it depends. But I kind of comfortable with that. I come at this from a lens of having spent, you know, a few decades in corporate America and I've, you know, worked with a bunch of the Fortune 500. So like that's how I started my career. So I got to see things at scale. So I just have this sense of how things work when they're operating at scale. And then being able to apply that to smaller scaling businesses, but having kind of seen the end result.
It it does give me that perspective. So, you know, a lot of I think obviously when you're initially founding a company, it tends to be all about the founder. You're chief cook and bottle washer. And then at some point, you know, you hire a few people and you hire a few more people, and especially if you're scaling quickly, the you know, the hiring tends to outpace the structure. And so, you know, you're at when you're at a certain
Point in the company, it can be kind of okay for it to be just very collaborative. And I don't want to go as far as to say free-for-all, but you know, it can be a lot looser. But then when you get to the point where the founder is not in the middle of all the conversations, and now you have a next level of leadership. Now you start to have to worry about, you know, not only process, but culture and you know, service standards, and
You know, how do you how do you make sure that even though you're not in the room that things are operating the way that that you would expect them to operate if you were in the room? bit of a you know, possibly some of a fallacy there because you know, founders will tell you it never works as well as when as when they're they are driving and and you'll hear about founders that they'll scale to a certain point and they'll delegate and they'll get the processes going and suddenly things start going off the the rails and they go into founder mode and they just dive.
Jeff Holman (03:41)
Yeah.
Diane Moura (03:42)
And
they're like, I'm gonna work around the clock and I'm gonna fix this darn thing myself. And then they try to figure out how to pull back. So there's a little bit of that balance there that, you know, I've seen executives wrestle with. and I think some of the some of the challenge is really in, you know, depending on their background, they they may not necessarily be hiring the right level of experience to be that next level of leader.
So if you have you know, if you have the executives and then the people that are working for the executive are more junior, maybe because budget isn't there, then the the leader's gonna have to dive in a lot more and you're gonna need a lot more structure and the clients are gonna expect to see you. So that's really the balance that you know, I'm sure you hear from from leaders as well is should I hire fewer expensive people or more?
less expensive people. And it's a, you know, not a clear answer for every business, but if you do have that next level of leadership that you're confident that you can delegate to and they have the savvy and the, you know, the client presence to be able to to really be more like you in front of clients and to drive the business over time, it tends to be a lot str less stressful for the the executive.
Jeff Holman (05:09)
Yeah. Well, that's like I I love that you answered it that way. because it shows that you're not only s you you don't look you don't only work with CEOs, you you are running your own business. Like that's that's said from the CEO perspective right there, right? You like you like you've been through it. Not that you're not that you're describing your own business when you say all that 'cause cause you you're you're speaking generically, but but clearly you've you've done a lot of your own business leadership
Maybe we should give some background to the audience. Tell us a little bit about Zen Change and maybe some of the things that led up to that and how long you've been doing Zen Change marketing.
Diane Moura (05:46)
Sure, absolutely. Well, after I, you know, I I reached the point I was traveling around the globe with corporate and it was great. And I, you know, I got to work with boardrooms and see a lot and really be that you know, really learn the bridge between applying technology to business issues. So I'm by no means a technical person, as my engineering family will continue to remind me, but I do understand a love technology and I love the use cases of what technology can do. So, you know, I've I've been in marketing
long enough to remember when people were asking if they even needed a website. And, you know, I've watched executives wrestle with, you know, email and search engines and all of that and smartphones. And and so to be at this age of AI now is incredibly exciting as that next evolution. So, you know, I when I left, I decided that I wanted to kind of get off the the weekly travel grind 'cause it was a lot.
and then I launched Unchange. It's been a little over 13 years now. and it was, you know, like anyone out there who's listening and you know, you've been in corporate and you've had, you know, the legal department you get to go see, and you have, you know, the sales people helping you, and you have like you basically have this entire ecosystem around you doing everything. And suddenly you launch your own thing, and now you have to figure it out yourself. And now
Jeff Holman (07:06)
Yeah. Me and me and me, yeah.
Diane Moura (07:08)
exactly. And if you don't know.
then you either hire someone or you partner with a company who can do that thing. So maybe you partner with a law firm that knows all their stuff and you kind of get them on more of a fractional basis. Maybe you partner with a marketing agency and you get them on a fractional basis and you kind of build your your company that way until you can scale out to the point where where you can.
Do your own thing. So because I think of that background, you know, Zen Change is, yes, a marketing agency, and we do all of the stuff that you would expect a marketing agency would do from, you know, strategy through to execution. but I think because of understanding that founders' dilemma, we also quite often work with clients where we will just plug right in and become their outsourced marketing department.
and we'll work seamlessly with the client. And in some cases, we'll have, I mean, I've worked with founders who decide that they want a family member to learn how to lead their marketing team and we'll just work side by side and we'll kind of help train them and we'll fill in the pieces that you know they might not be comfortable doing. Cause nowadays, you know, like whenever somebody says, yes, I I have a marketing person and I kind of snicker because it's like, really, you have like a
You know, like you have a a developer, you have, you know, somebody who understands analytics, they know how to run ads, they're super creative, they're a great writer. It's like who is that super person, right? so you do need all those skills, but you're not when you're growing a company at the point where you can yet have all of those as being roles internally. So, you know, like anything, it's just a great opportunity to really, you know, partner with somebody on more of a fractional basis. so that's the kind of business that we run. We focus on
on services businesses, primarily. so, you know, like law firms and you know, doctors and restaurants and you know, trades and that. and we really for a lot of those clients just kind of become their their marketing team so they don't need to worry about it.
Jeff Holman (09:13)
That makes sense. I you know, as you're describing that, I'm I'm thinking there are a lot of parallels between marketing and and law. I you know, as I've as I've been the attorney for a lot of different companies, I'm like I'm like you guys know that you need several different attorneys because there's different expertise. I don't do it all. I mean, I'm a smart guy, I think, but but I'm not the expert in in across the board in fifteen different areas. And I think marketing is the same way, right? People are starting up and they're like, I need a marketing
Right.
Diane Moura (09:44)
grab
like their cousin or like this person who just graduated and it's like, well they have a marketing degree. I think they can go run run my marketing department. It's like, okay, it's
Jeff Holman (09:51)
But marketing is so much.
Diane Moura (09:53)
part of a book is one thing. But you know, how many campaigns have you run where you've actually had to make sure that you're driving the results and you understand what that takes? And you know, I agree with you. I think I think law firms are
quite similar, you know, the way that you structure services and the way that, you know, nobody wants to pay for hourly anymore. They just want to have like tell me what I'm getting and, you know, give me a give me a fixed price for that and you know, make sure that you deliver and it's clear. But but yeah, I mean, you know, in in the world of marketing, you have you know, you have your kind of your your even to the point of if you want to build a website, the the skill set to design the site is not usually the same skill set of
building the site because it ha of all the different pieces that have to go into place. And then you've got SEO and then, you know, AEO if you want to be found by AI. And then GEO if you want to be found locally. And and then you've got your super creative. It's it's like marketing's really become, I think, very much of a yin and yang, because you have all of the technical stuff that you need to do. But then you equally have all of the creative piece because if you look at social media, now you're dealing with, you know, humans, like, you know, I think on
On web and SEO, a lot a lot of it you're really trying to, you're trying to make the bots happy, but then also the humans when they actually come and see your content. But on social media, you know, you're trying to make the algorithms happy, but then you're also trying to stop the scroll with humans. So, you know, how do you how do you do that? And it really is this balance of skills that you need in an organization to accomplish that.
Jeff Holman (11:28)
Well, and that's probably why you why you built what you built with with your team and everything. But I wanna go back we don't need to dwell too long on this, but I wanna I just wanna explore when you went from, you know, corporate traveling, doing all this stuff for these large structured, you know, well funded companies and you and you said, I'm gonna I'm gonna start my own thing. You know, first month, first six months into that, what what are some of the things that you that didn't go quite as planned? You thought, I'm gonna go out, we're gonna
land these clients or we're gonna, you know, XYZ. And and as you get into it, you're like, well, that's not what I thought. But what are some of those th surely there were a few of those moments, right?
Diane Moura (12:09)
Yeah, I I'm not gonna pretend that it was a s it was a smooth transition by any means. I mean I remember I think one of my first prospects and I sat them down in a room and gave them a PowerPoint presentation because you know that's how I was used to doing it in corporate and that's just not the way that it works when you're out in the
Jeff Holman (12:27)
How how big was this potential client?
Diane Moura (12:30)
I mean they weren't they weren't huge, so this would be maybe the first PowerPoint presentation they had seen all month, at least. So it was just not how they were used to consuming information.
Jeff Holman (12:42)
I I don't think I've prepared a PowerPoint presentation for potential clients with my clients. yeah, I can see how that they'd be like, well, wait a second.
Diane Moura (12:49)
Like, all right, so what yeah, turned the lights out and everything. I mean we had the
Jeff Holman (12:54)
They're like, I was gonna write you a check, but you made me sit through that PowerPoint.
Diane Moura (12:56)
I know. Now now I'm done. Now I'm done. So I mean you learn because I think a lot of you know, when you're dealing with smaller organizations, so much is really dependent on relationships. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I really learned is just the power of of building your network and having the relationships. Because, you know, if I tell somebody I'm gonna, you know, they they need an attorney, I'm gonna say, here's here's Jeff. I a hundred percent trust him. you know, here's the guy that you need to work with. There's a
pretty good chance that they're just going to work with you and they're not going to go talk to six other law firms. But, you know, if I'm just kind of hitting them up cold, well now they don't know who you are. They and so there's there's this whole you know, you still even digitally need to feel like you're kind of developing a relationship, which is where, I know we were talking before we we went live about, you know, personal branding and the importance of that and how that can help to bridge the gap. But
But those relationships and building your network and creating your referral partners and really nurturing those referral partners, it like I think if you're doing nothing else when you're starting your and again, this is for a services business, not for, you know, a an app, a technology or an e-com business, but you know, services in particular, it's so much about relationships and credibility that I think that's a really, really key aspect to growing your business.
Jeff Holman (14:21)
In service businesses, I think you know, there's a there's this aspect to them where you if you go to law school or maybe you're d you're a doctor and you open a practice or a dentist or or an architect, whoever it might be, right? These service businesses I think they're starting to change a little bit, but for the most part you're you're you you learn the technical, we'll call it the technical side of it, right? The technical side of the law for me. And but you don't know any of the business side of it. So you you go in, you're like, I'm gonna start a business and then all of a sudden
ninety percent of your day is spent doing business and and the marketing is feels foreign and you're like, but but then wait, I gotta I gotta actually do find time for networking and yeah building my personal brand and it it's pretty it's pretty amazing if you stop and think about it, or at least I think so, when when we look out there and we say, despite how incredibly hard it is, like a lot of people really make it and they and they they build these firms and and they're pretty cool and
Diane Moura (15:18)
They do. And you see some consistencies there with, you know, who makes it and and who doesn't. But you know, and even you know, I talked to lot of of physicians in particular where, you know, the the line I hear from them is, Well, I just want to practice medicine. You figure out how to get the patients in the medicine. Yeah. Well, yes, but we still need to get your face out there because that's who they're coming to see.
Jeff Holman (15:38)
Well well tell us a little bit about that because you know personal branding and probably some other things that you what are some of the things you run into kind of on a regular basis for these companies that are really trying to you know, maybe they're established enough that I and I use a million dollars as kind of you get to you can get to a million dollars just operating a business, you know, yourself or with a small team and i in a lot of fields and and you don't necessarily have the structure, but how to get past that?
Whatever that threshold point is, whether it's a million or five hundred or two million, for your industry, whatever that is, to get past that, all of a sudden you have to start being more deliberate. You have to you have to do things you've never done before, even though you worked really hard and you got to where you were because you know you're capable, but but it's those extra things that people like like you can bring in and say, Yeah, you you've done well. Have you now we need to start thinking about the next stage? What what are those things for the the clients that you work with?
Diane Moura (16:35)
Well, it's you a lot of times it's it is breaking out of your comfort zone and being visible. Like you I always I tell leaders that it is not optional to be what I'll say top of funnel or or to be the like the lead generator for your brand or the face of your brand. and I mean, you know, even large firms like Morgan and Morgan, who's on the billboards, who's in the commercials,
Jeff Holman (16:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Diane Moura (16:58)
Morgan. I mean, his wife is starting now, but I mean it's you know, they're he's recognized but if if you actually
want to to engage them for your case. He's not the guy who's litigating for you. Right. But he is the face of the brand and he is that trusted image. So he becomes part of the brand. And you do see that with the, you know, I'm using law firms as an example, but you do see that as, you know, with the firms that that make it, is that the the leader is not afraid to be out there personally, but yet they have
hired the team that they have the confidence is going to execute to their standards. And that should be enough to make the prospect comfortable that, you know, we all kind of know we're not going to get to talk to that person, but you're you're hoping or you have the impression that behind the scenes, they're driving the standards that will allow you to receive a a higher level of service than perhaps if you
engage with a smaller firm that's less visible. So I mean you have to as a leader be out there. You have to be on video these days. I know a lot of leaders are not a fan of that, but you know, I keep telling people, unfortunately, get over it. Like so you you have to as the leader, you you just, you know, you're you are front and center for the brand. You're setting the standard. You're it's there's a reason why if you get on a sales call that you're more likely to close it than anybody else working in your company. It's because of who you are.
And that credibility. So how do you scale that? And you scale that through personal branding. And it's, you know, being on video and it's but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're personally doing it all because you got a company to run. so you know, if one of the things that a a marketing firm can do for you is to capture you on video, let's say, and then now use the heck out of that everywhere.
Right. So it's going to be clips and it's going to be turning that into written content and you know, grabbing quotes and, you know, so how did how do we how do we not take up a ton of your time, but still manage to scale that across, you know, whatever channels? Cause one of the things that we're seeing with AI is in order to get found, it really is omnichannel. It used to be that you could just say, Well, I'm just gonna pick like one or two, let's say social media channels. I'm just gonna do them really, really well.
It's like, yeah, but the bots are checking everywhere. And you're trying to get you know, like brand mentions, and the more that you're being talked about are the things that the bots are looking for. So you really do need to be out everywhere, visible, engaging with your audiences. But it again, it's just too much for a single leader to do on their own. But you know, if you run a law firm, for example.
So the founding partners should be out there doing personal brand, but you know, any of the managing partners, they should be out there managing a personal brand as well because they're all responsible for generating a book of business. So, you know, that's part of what's going to help you make those connections.
Jeff Holman (20:05)
Well, it do you r I I would I would suspect, and maybe it's because I've been doing this for close to twenty five years now, that I would suspect, maybe I'm maybe I just don't see what's happening around me sometimes. I suspect that a lot of people still though, when you say everybody needs a personal brand, there are probably a ton of people who are j just not doing it though, right? And not everybody's building a personal brand and certainly not everybody's out there doing omnichannel. Like how how are the what are you seeing? Are i is is
Am I describing it correctly? Is that what you're seeing that do you only have maybe twenty percent of the people who are actually really trying to whether it's on LinkedIn or YouTube, get out there and do it do branding or is it more or less than that? What what do you see?
Diane Moura (20:45)
So
remember that personal brand does not mean that you need to become a Kardashian.
Jeff Holman (20:50)
Thank you.
Diane Moura (20:52)
So personal brand can be for a niche audience. It's just making sure that you are being clear about your point of view, you're being visible, but it doesn't mean that you're necessarily becoming a massive influencer. So there's a there's a difference. It's you know not not hiding behind the scenes and and being out there more.
so I am seeing more and more leaders who are more willing to do that these days. I think they're really recognizing as much as they'll still say, Well, I hate being on video, but there's, you know, sometimes there's ways we can make that easy. So not everyone is comfortable just looking eyes to camera and saying something, you know, off the cuff. They get, you know, I've I've worked with a number of attorneys who
you know, it's interesting because you find like the the litigators, you put a camera on on them and they're just they just go. you don't even need to give them a script half of the time. but you know, any the the transactional attorneys, like we've we've had great conversations and then we turn the lights on and they're like and you have to do like 25 takes to get what you need out of them. So you know, I I think that
You you need to also play to your strengths. And if you're more comfortable having a conversation like this, be on a podcast, right? Because you and I are just having a casual conversation that could be happening over coffee anywhere. But yeah, easy and you know, free flowing. You don't really have to think about what you're gonna say because it's all in your head anyway. And and that's going to also create content that can form part of your your personal brand. Yeah. So I think there's more of that happening now.
Jeff Holman (22:38)
Yeah. D does some of this I know you I know you said you focus on service based companies, does some of this though carry over into other other realms, people building different types of businesses? Is the need to be kind of the face of the business the same or or is it different depending on the industry you're in?
Diane Moura (22:55)
I think it is different. you know, services, because at the end of the day, you're selling people is definitely a, you know, people forward type of of branding. the product, if you're a product-based business, the product is the star. So you may be featuring the person behind the product. So let's say it's a it's a medical product, you want to hear from the doctor talking about the medical product. Same with if it's a scientific product, if it's
you know, like a a widget, then, you know, maybe I would rather hear from an influencer telling me how cool the widget is and, you know, how much they enjoy using it. Or if I'm, you know, if it's like skincare, I want to see an influencer using it and here's the before and after and and that type of thing. So it's a little more product focused. But you see when I talked about influencers, there's still the aspect of people. So, you know, in that case
the so, you know, let's say you're a skincare brand and you're founded by a dermatologist. So we still want to hear from the dermatologist. We want to know why you selected that formula and why it's different and why it's better. But then we also want to see, you know, a number of people who look like us using the product in the before and after. Yes, exactly.
Jeff Holman (24:06)
Makes sense. That makes sense. I'd I'd like to dig in a little bit into maybe seeing how what you do fits into these breakout moments that we talk about here on the show. and the breakout moment, of course, is, you know, if you follow the what we're calling the breakout arc, we you've got, you know, somebody is building momentum somewhere. Usually they they're they're gaining traction, they're launching products, and that momentum is growing, but then there's a disruption of the momentum. We call that the break.
And so you build something you're building and something breaks and then you have this breakout moment where you you get to sit back and reflect on why it broke and how to manage it and what constraints you're dealing with and things like that. And and if you do it correctly, then maybe you'll have the breakthrough, which is it which is, you know, regaining your momentum or or even maybe achieving a new trajectory for the company. W where where do you fit into this? Like when do people come to you and they say, hey,
Dean, I I like I'm I've been trying and I've like, do they come because something something is already broken? Or do they come because, you know, they're at the building stage? Like and and there's probably a difference between when do they normally come versus when should they come? But but what do you what is it you see it kind of in that cycle and and how do you help how do you help CEOs that are looking to grow their companies?
manage that breakout kind of moment in their business. Yeah.
Diane Moura (25:37)
Yeah. Well, I mean, they they do come at all different phases, but in terms of specifically the break, you know, we've been doing a lot of work lately with companies that are trying to get to insert company name here 2.0. And a lot of that is being driven by the rapid pace of technology acceleration. it's being driven by the fact that they may have been doing things in-house for a period of time.
But you know, when you when you work in-house and you're focused on a single brand, you're kind of single-threaded in terms of your expertise and you might not be seeing all the things that are happening in the market. And maybe, you know, your training and your your expertise is not at the level of of the market. there's companies that we're working with that are, you know, 20, 30 years old. They've been you know, business has been, you know, pretty steady.
But then something happened. You know, there's they they may have yeah,
Jeff Holman (26:36)
yeah.
Diane Moura (26:37)
there may have been like a spike after the the pandemic, perhaps, and then things fell off. And so now they're looking at their revenue and they're going, well, this isn't working, but we've got this big established organization, you know, what do we do? What's next? Or sometimes it can be a happy break where they're growing rapidly and then they're like, We can't take any more, we're gonna
We're just gonna bust at the seams. So how do we fix this? And we don't necessarily just want to throw people at the problem. So how do we optimize it? So for for those types of firms, a lot of what I've been doing is having, you know, you almost call it like an intervention, but having a, you know, workshop with them where, you know, I've got a I've got a company that I'm working with in a couple of weeks, we're we're spending a weekend together and bringing they're bringing their leaders in from their different locations. you know, I I
We I work with them either in person, sometimes I'll work with them virtually if their leaders are are all over. and we'll go through a process where now we'll sit back because they might have what usually the common thread is, is they've been doing a number of things tactically, but now they need to take a step back and revisit the strategy because the market has changed, maybe their people have changed, maybe their competitors have are are eating more of their lunch than they used to. you know, so there's all sorts of things that could lead to that.
break as you call it. And so we'll go through a, you know, very prescriptive like reset on, you know, the strategy, the, you know, what's the go to market? Who are we targeting? What are they like? Where do we find them? What are they looking for? What other competitors are going after them? What's their messaging? What's our strengths? What should our messaging be? And then we'll develop a set of kind of mini projects. So what's what's the 12 month plan?
know what needs to happen. Usually there'll be kind of an intensive 90-day sprint of activities that need to happen, maybe to refresh the messaging, the sales materials, etc. maybe there's some things where there's new roles that they need to bring on the the team or they need to do a little bit of restructuring. So this there's kind of that intense 90 day, you know, how do we get to the the foundation for 2.0
And then a number of initiatives that that get implemented. And that can either be something that they would then go and and you know implement everything themselves, or that's where, you know, when I mentioned earlier about us being able to be kind of a fractional marketing department that allows us to plug in and fill the gaps where perhaps either short term or longer term they they might not have the skills internally. So it's just bringing that fresh perspective when
something is broken to get to that level that they need to for their two dot
Jeff Holman (29:25)
There's some sticky parts in that process, th places where where I I I shouldn't have paused. I shouldn't have paused because you're like everything. but no, are there are there some places in that process when you think back about clients you worked with where where where people inevitably seem to get stuck, even though, you know, you you guys are guiding them through it and they're trying, you know, you guys have the process. You guys can walk them through it. But but is there a place that
where CEOs or or other leadership comes in and and they're like th they just have a hard time connecting with the concepts or or getting past, you know, getting around certain corners in in the in in the path that that they're on. I I would imagine that there are some places where you just see and you're like, we know you're gonna get stuck here. So we we actually modify our system and we we change the language we use because
'Cause everybody kind of just gets stuck here and they struggle. What where are those struggle points for the teams that you work with?
Diane Moura (30:29)
You know, Jeff, I mean, more often than not, the struggle points are people related. Because it's either you know, so some of the struggle points could be, but Susie's been here for the last ten years and she's been doing this this thing for us and we love Susie and we don't wanna, you know, we don't wanna let her go. So so fine. So now we
Jeff Holman (30:49)
She loves social media. We don't want to take that away from her.
Diane Moura (30:52)
Right. So now we look at, okay, so maybe we figure out a way where we're working alongside Suzy for a while and we're trying to train her. Maybe there's some things she can do to, you know, capture content internally, but then, you know, give it to us to kind of run with it and make sure that, you know, all the the analytics and the engagement and everything is done. So we we find a we find a good home for Susie, if you will, that is going to allow her to continue to add value to the company. Sometimes it's good old.
company politics of communications. Some different organizations are doing different things that maybe they're not talking in the way that they need to. And we have to, you know, sometimes extend beyond your usual marketing conversations. And now we're talking about structure and mandate and and you know, there's a lot of principles of, you know, name name your methodology, but whether it's you know EOS or scaling up or you know, whatever, but you need to have
that you know the clear structure in place because if we're going to create a number of initiatives and we're going to create owners for initiatives, but we don't have the actual kind of overall ownership of the results, not us personally, somebody in the company in addition needs to have
Jeff Holman (32:05)
Alignment, buy in and yeah.
Diane Moura (32:07)
that alignment, then it's just an exercise. And we won't have really broken through to that change. So you know, those are some of the big things. Cause usually the
You know, we need a new system, we need to change a process, we need to develop SO. I mean that that's all stuff that can get done fairly readily. But it's like the the people stuff usually is the rubbing point in organizations. It's a lot of it's you know, either skill set or or fiefdom kind of issues that get in.
Jeff Holman (32:41)
Using you're using you're using law firm terms right now, I think.
Diane Moura (32:46)
They're not just law firm terms, I will assure you.
Jeff Holman (32:50)
Yeah. well so okay, so so there's some struggle points there often with the people. W where are the points in the process where where you see people kind of catch the spark? And and you're going and you're moving along and all of a sudden it's like, this is what we're doing? Yeah, I c I can do this. This like I didn't realize this is what it was. Like, let's let's go. Let's do it. Are there are there certain moments? Maybe it's different for every company, but are there moments that you see where where people tend to to
really get that buy in, really feel, you know, aligned and sold on the strategy.
Diane Moura (33:24)
Yeah, I I think the, you know, sort of the the moment the moment of alignment for an individual is everyone in a company has stuff they do that they would rather not do. And if all of a sudden they see that, this technology can do that, you know, whether it's AI or whether it's something else, or there's, you know, there's a more efficient way that you're going to show me, or you're just gonna take this off my plate so I can go focus on the stuff that I'm really good at.
And they're then they're they're totally on board 'cause now their their everyday just became a lot more pleasant.
Jeff Holman (34:00)
Right, exactly. And I'll agree with you.
Diane Moura (34:05)
And that's like for leaders that are are trying to implement AI as well in general, you know, that's the quickest way to get your team on board is you look at, you know, like there's I I have a I have a rule with my team that if anything is going to take you longer than twenty minutes, we need to take another look at it. Now that doesn't mean that the entire thing shouldn't take more than twenty minutes, but if you're doing anything that kind of feels like it's either repetitive and that could mean
I have to do it like once a day for exactly.
Jeff Holman (34:37)
Like a data entry thing.
Diane Moura (34:39)
Or if there's something, if if you're about to create a spreadsheet and analyze something that comes out of one of our systems, no, that's we're not going to do that. We're going to go modify the system so that it's just going to give you what you need like as a dashboard on a, you know, a moment by moment basis. so that it's though it's challenging those types of things. And as soon as people s suddenly start to realize that,
those solutions can be implemented really rapidly now, they get excited because now and now they're looking at the next thing. you well, you fixed this thing. So now I've got this other thing that's always been bugging me. And can we address that as well? And then they then they start to really get on board.
Jeff Holman (35:19)
So has so we've been talking about people a lot. Has has but now you're talking about the technology and the implementation side of it, which I think it was maybe before we started recording, you're like, yeah, it's changing every 45 seconds these days. So how is that how is that altering your practice and your team internally and and where are the kind of major leverage points that clients are able to
I don't wanna say use AI, but reliably use AI because I think there's a difference there.
Diane Moura (35:49)
Well, I mean, for us, and again, there's so there's a difference between technology that you might use internally and you know, technology that you're actually going to ship. Sure. Very, very different animal. There's a lot of really cool things you can do internally, but it doesn't mean that you're in the software business.
Jeff Holman (36:11)
Right. Right. So doesn't doesn't mean it's it's ready to to sell out as a SaaS platform.
Diane Moura (36:17)
Exactly. Because all of the, you know, I I grew up working for technology companies and all of that system development lifecycle stuff, it's a lot more rapid now, but you know, like you still have spreads, you still have everything, but at the end of the day, all the levels of testing and you know, that all still exists. But that said, you can do some really cool things internally. So we were struggling with our project management system because it you know, you're trying to get the right reports that come out of it to do the right thing.
my God, this is ridiculous. And so we built one. And so now when someone on our team and it's all AI enabled and and when someone on our team has a need, like I was explaining, you know, if somebody wants to create a spreadsheet for something, and we can just go very quickly and say, you know, we're we're just gonna create that that capability. And it's it's rapid, it gets implemented right away. Would I ever ship that to a client? Heck no.
you know, would we show a client how to do it? Yeah, we could certainly do that.
Jeff Holman (37:17)
Yeah, but it takes some it takes some expertise and maybe patience, right?
Diane Moura (37:21)
Yeah, and expects and and and you know, I come at things from a lens of I've worked in technology for a long time. Like I said, I'm not technical, but I understand how to ask AI to do what I want because I'm I'm talking to it like it's it's a piece of technology, not like it's a human. Yeah. So it just that just makes it a lot easier when you're trying to to develop your own thing. But even just, you know, little tools that you might want to use yourself to make things easier. I mean, you can vibe code a lot of that stuff now.
And and even if you if you work for a bigger organization, then create it, use it as a prototype. I mean, I I was in working on technology proje projects back in the day where you would try to extract information from the brains of the executive and then you'd document it all, then you you know, you hope you had all the requirements documented right, and then you'd go work with the development team and they would take the the requirements and they would build the thing, and then you'd show it to the executives, and invariably they would be like, Well.
Can you also get it to do this other thing over here? And I'd be like, okay, that would be a change control item. And now we need to circle back through the whole process again, right? And it gets it, it was cumbersome. And that's why, you know, a lot of technology projects would take a year, if not longer. And so now it's super rapid because you can iterate with it, get it to this is what I want, and then you hand that over to either your internal or or your external IT partner and say, build me this.
And then they can go through the proper system development lifecycle and they can make sure that, you know, it's hardened and you're not gonna have security issues and all that stuff that regular business people don't think about and can really get their companies in trouble if they just go build it and you know let it go out in the wild. but it you know, it's a great it's like that old saying, a picture's worth a thousand words. So it just it creates additional capability that helps to bridge the gap between business and technology.
Jeff Holman (39:14)
Well, and I'm sure you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing, right? We we both deal with clients with lots of expectat expectations and and one of those expectations is sometimes budgetary you know, limitations. and so we get you know, we get a lot of people say, Hey, I've got this document. I it's it's ready to go. I've I've pretty much written it with the help of AI. You know, can you just can you just look at it and and let me know, you know, that it's good to go.
And and one thing that I the the conversation I'm finding that I'm having, and I suspect you are too to a large extent, is is that the people are approaching AI saying, okay, I've created this awesome output. And and I'm trying to reframe that saying, that's not really output. That is that is going to be awesome input, but it's it's an input, not an output. You've just made a much better input than and maybe save some time on.
You our back and forth and me understanding the issues, but it's still a an input into my process, not an output from my process, right? There's a distinction.
Diane Moura (40:17)
Your case, it's gonna stand
up in a court of law because you know all the nuances that you need to to work into it. It's like if you're using AI to try to diagnose a medical problem, right? You're gonna have a great conversation with it, but are you going to take its output and risk your health with whatever it tells you to do? Or are you gonna maybe take that and talk to your physician who's had all these years of training and is going and you're gonna say, Hey, you know, could it be this, this, or this?
And they're probably gonna tell you, you know, in the in a heartbeat, well no, because of this other thing that, you know, AI didn't associate with what your your c your prompt was.
Jeff Holman (40:55)
It's
interesting example you use because I do think, and I'm not in this world much, but I hear a little I hear some rumblings around it. And in the world of healthcare and and peptides, I think there is actually quite a bit of self diagnosing, self administration and and and some effects from that. And I I don't know enough to speak speak to it. But it does it does it does kind of raise the issue that there are people who i either
either ignorantly or or not, are making the decision to to go forward with with purely AI a AI diagnoses and and recommendations. So and and I know we have some clients who do that, right? I get I have some good clients I work with on a regular basis and they'll still say, Hey, we did this we did this letter of intent recently and we signed it with the other party and and they'll they'll hand it to you and I'm like,
This was AI, wasn't it? 'Cause I didn't do it and they're like, Yeah, it was AI. I felt pretty good about it. I'm like, Okay, well we'll have to I mean there's a bunch of stuff
Diane Moura (41:58)
Yeah.
Jeff Holman (41:58)
Yeah, a bunch of holes and and and if if nothing ever falls apart then maybe it's fine. But when something falls apart, it can fall apart pretty pretty wildly. So So you're seeing that and you're having
Diane Moura (42:09)
Just on that point, sorry, but I mean my my word with AI is that I'm I'm just I'm on on this soapbox about is context. Because if you know I have marketing context because of all my decades of experience, I will work with AI and I will get it to deliver a better result. You have legal context, you will work with AI and get it to deliver a better result. But I'm not an attorney. If I go to AI and I try to get it to create a document for me.
There's going to be a lot of holes in it because I don't really know all the the details to ask. And I also don't know to push back. I don't know about you, but I have arguments with AI all the time. And it'll come and give me something that'll be like, no, you need to go look at this other thing. And it'll be like, yes, that was a very good suggestion. I'm gonna go look at that now. And, you know, but if I just took it at face value because I was a, you know, fresh graduate or whatever, or somebody who didn't have context in that field, I would end up going down the wrong path. And that's the part that I think.
that people are just assuming because they get the answer from Chat GPT that it's right. And if you don't have the context to work with it to get the right answers, you it could send you down the wrong path.
Jeff Holman (43:18)
Yeah. I you know, it's interesting you say that. I actually this just this morning was was working on a project and and the the concept of context came up. And I think there's actually two layers to it. One is, you know, the broader context. You know when to ask the right questions. But the other is AI has context, right? When you get into a thread on AI, you're actually dealing with and I did this because I this came up because I I kind of said, Hey, I've got two versions of a document. I want to
I want to compare and contrast them. I want to assess each of them for certain things. And and and as soon as I did that, I actually created the boundaries of the conversation. So later on, when I made some some changes to one document, it wasn't just my, you know, general knowledge influencing how that conversation went. I actually could not get out of the context that was placed there by the second document that I ultimately didn't want to use. And it kept
reverting trying to revert my better document back to the other document. And I I finally had to say, nope, I I gotta go into a different thread because the the way you know the way the way my my clot is set up with team the team account, all that stuff. I had to actually go into a new thread so that I could escape the context that I didn't want to be limiting the conversation. So that's
Diane Moura (44:39)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Holman (44:39)
Exactly. Human context and AI context maybe are working i in opposite directions sometimes. So absolutely. Well well I love I love the conversation we're having and I want to bring this back around just to the the human element of this. because in r you know, when it's all said and done, we're not well, we're not to the point yet that that you and I are being hired by AI agents and and paid by AI AI agents. Maybe that will happen someday. Yeah.
Maybe in another forty five seconds from now. But but it really I mean, there there's this human element to everything we do. You and I deal with with with humans, we we deal with our our clients are really in every business to some extent right now is a human business. It's relationships, it's it's communication. Like where do you see this going and because AI is changing. Where do you see your practice going and
Where do you see people, clients leveraging leveraging the technology to improve the human aspect of what they're doing?
Diane Moura (45:48)
Hmm. I mean that I'm despite all of the the the risks and all the concerns about AI and jobs, I'm I'm very, very excited about it because I fundamentally believe in the human spirit. I believe in our creativity, I believe that we are going to find ways to leverage AI that, you know, you and I having this conversation today haven't even imagined. You know, I think we did that with the internet, we're gonna do it again. doesn't mean that if you're not using AI,
today that you're not gonna be able to keep your job. And it doesn't mean that if you're not using AI today, that you're you know you're you're going to find your opportunities are severely limited. But that said, when we look at the the rapid acceleration of the technology and and when we look at now coupling that with robotics and with you know even just taking agentic AI to the next
level and all the things that that we can do having you know AI be our personal assistant in so many ways so that you know we get to to do the more of the fun work. I mean there are there are jobs out there that we all know that humans should not be doing. It's just they're they're just draining. And it does make more sense that we have you know AI or you know AI enabled robotics
doing those jobs or working alongside humans to make us better. And so while I can't fully imagine even what things are going to look like a year down the road, I do see with the rapid pace of change that you know, right now we're still using AI in you know different threads. We have different tools doing different things. We're currently
At least most of us are a little afraid to kind of give it full access to all of our stuff because you hear all the horror stories about you know, even on the corporate level, about, you know, you've got agents that are, you know, breaking into their companies and they're they're going like outside of their guardrails because they thought they were on a mission and they'll just go. And so you hear those things and it does cause. I mean, you talk to anyone in corporate IT these days and they're they're just like
you know, they're they're not feeling really comfortable about where a lot of this is going. And and there's definitely some risk. So, you know, we do need to get on top of that. But when we figure out, you know, how to manage that risk and how to be comfortable with the risk in the same way that, you know, today we are comfortable making a banking transaction online. Ten years ago we were not. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, if you think of how fast that's going to accelerate and what we're going to be able to do.
I I think companies are going to be able to scale that much more quickly. You're, you know, you're already seeing you know, we're we're getting to like our our you know, multi-billion dollar companies that when you look at the at the relative percentage of of humans to to agents, it's pretty impressive. As scary as that might be for, you know, for especially for entry level workers, we got to figure out that whole dilemma, which is why we're thinking you know, we're seeing more of an up.
Uptick in in entrepreneurship. But if you imagine being a founder and if it's so much simpler to scale your company because you can scale up with technology and fewer smart humans who are managing that technology and what you're going to be able to get to market that much quicker, I just find that very, very exciting.
Jeff Holman (49:24)
And I it makes me take think of two things when you say all that, because one is probably there's probably a reliability gap, right? Like we're we we don't trust just like just like you mentioned with online banking transactions, for a time we didn't necessarily trust that it was that there it was all going to happen the way it was supposed to, that there wouldn't be someone looking over our over our shoulder or taking, you know, getting our information from our email. But but I think the relia reliability gap in that sense is closed. And
That will eventually happen on the AI side, right? We'll we'll figure out that okay, we can rely on this overall in these situations. The other thing that makes me think of is and you introduced me to a new term today. I haven't thought of the the term happy break before within the concept of the art this breakout art. And I I love it. I love it because as we're talking, you know, maybe that is partly where this is headed as as AI accelerates things. maybe it will be solving some of the some of the
less happy breaks in our businesses, but maybe we'll actually be identifying and and you know, creating opportunities around the the happy breaks that we otherwise might be overlooking in our business or or you know aren't aren't really I don't want to say achieving but aren't really dealing with because we're not moving fast enough to actually see those happy breaks. So I'm gonna have to think about that a little bit. So
Diane Moura (50:46)
It's your next next part of your methodology.
Jeff Holman (50:48)
Exactly. Happy breaks. well, Deanna, it's been great having you on the show and catching up with you and and talking about Zen change and the things that you're doing there. what would you what what what kind of parting words would you leave for somebody a scaling CEO who's maybe just at one of those struggle moments in their own business? What would you say to them as parting words here?
Diane Moura (51:14)
Well, I mean, I think that you know, every every technology revolution, it it changes the tools. it doesn't change the importance of trust, of of clarity, of leadership. And I think the the organizations that remembered that tend to outperform the ones that are chasing the newest trend. So as much as technology is exciting and it's expanding, I think remembering the core of
what makes us love being human is what will lead us to success in in our businesses.
Jeff Holman (51:48)
I love that. I couldn't say it better, so I won't try. if people want to get a hold of you, what what's a good place to to connect or or find out more about what you do?
Diane Moura (51:58)
I'd say, you know, hit me up on LinkedIn. It's D I A N E O U R A is my profile, or website is zenchange.com.
Jeff Holman (52:07)
Awesome. Deanne, thank you so much for for joining me today.
Diane Moura (52:10)
Been a pleasure, Jeff. Thank you for having me.
Jeff Holman (52:12)
Yeah, and our and to our audience who joined us, we're always glad to have you on the breakout CEO. Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you enjoy the show, a rating or a review goes a long way. Our mission is to promote the stories of breakout CEOs in scaling SaaS, e-commerce, and tech companies to equip peer CEOs with valuable perspectives and confidence.
Thanks again for joining us on this episode of the Breakout CEO. I'm Jeff Holman, and I'll see you next time.
