The Strategic Altitude Every Scaling CEO Needs

TRANSCRIPT SUMMARY:

00:00 Leadership Lessons Preview
00:48 Meet Logan McKnight
02:05 High-Stakes Healthcare Scaling
03:14 Navigating COVID Disruptions
04:45 Escaping Daily Operations
06:55 Creating Clear Team Ownership
09:59 Why Leaders Document Everything
13:03 Defining Culture and Values
14:56 Building Aligned Leadership Teams
17:00 When Founders Should Step Aside
18:25 Gaining Strategic Altitude
25:57 Signs CEOs Need Help

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Logan Mcknight (00:00)

Sometimes you are literally in the weeds and you need to get at a higher altitude to be able to see where you're going. You can't be both putting out the daily fires and have the clarity, the energy you need to be looking at the future vision of the company. When I put somebody in a leadership position, I would work with them of like what do they own end to end? What do I need to be looped in and then what do I need to approve before they do? I learned very quickly.

You put things in writing because things move quickly. You kind of need to become a drunk parrot as a CEO and just repeat, you know, these values and how they show up in the culture. This founder who founded the company isn't always destined to be the CEOs at scales. I want to give them the feedback, like even if it's not what they want to hear.

Jeff Holman (00:48)

Welcome back everybody to the Breakout CEO podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Holman, and I am here today with Logan McKnight of Goodnight Consulting. Logan, welcome to the show.

Logan Mcknight (00:58)

Thanks. Glad to be here.

Jeff Holman (01:00)

Yeah, glad to have you. So this is one of our advisory insights episodes where we once a month we have kind of a a few episodes in one week that we set aside for people who maybe aren't current scaling CEOs, but you work with scaling CEOs. So you guys get to bring in all of the good information that scaling CEOs use to actually do the scaling that they're trying to do. So it's it's great to have kind of a community in on the show where it's I mean, we love the CEO stories, that's the core of what we do, but

But to have the advisor side of it, as I call it at least, have the advisor side of it really rounds it out. So, but you you bring both kind of CEO experience and advisor experience. So we're getting the full package here today.

Logan Mcknight (01:43)

Yeah. And that was I mean, definitely my CEO experience kind of founded why I wanted to work with scaling CEOs because of all of the challenges I knew I came up with in working with them alone.

Jeff Holman (01:53)

Yeah. Give us a little bit of flavor for what it was you did. You were in the healthcare space, the neuroscience or surgery, like like that sounds complicated. Ta simplify it for us. I'll I'll mess it up if I say it.

Logan Mcknight (02:05)

No, I'll make it as simple as possible. So I did neurophysiology for most of my career. And so I ran a service company. We had neurologists, a medical billing part, and we even had a company in India. But basically we had technicians that went into the operating room and they would set the patient up with electrodes and let the surgeon know when they screwed up. So no pressure, no stress, right? so we were in pretty high stakes, neurosurgeries, vascular surgeries and things like that with attacks all over the United States and India.

Jeff Holman (02:34)

Okay. Wow. How how how big would would you say your company was? How did you do you describe it in terms of revenue? Do you describe it in terms of people, number of surgeries? Like how how how did you guys describe that?

Logan Mcknight (02:44)

All the all the ways. we when I started we had about twelve people. I think because I was in the operat I was with the company for eight years. I started out as the VP of ops. So I was more looking at people and scaling. And when I started we were in three states with twelve people. And then when I left we had eleven states with twenty five people. and then we scaled from two million to eight million.

Jeff Holman (03:08)

I mean

that's a that's a that's a good run. So and

Logan Mcknight (03:12)

Especially during COVID.

Jeff Holman (03:14)

that's right. That's right. You mentioned that. It was during COVID. how did that impact the scaling? Like surgeries were still happening, but the but the procedures got way more complex, I would assume, right? And did that make this service more necessary or did it make it harder to deliver? What what did COVID do for the the service you guys were providing?

Logan Mcknight (03:35)

Well, I mean, I th th there is a number of challenges. One was the restrictions. I made in Seattle, Washington, and the West Coast definitely had a lot more restrictions and elective surgery shutdowns, I think, than other areas in the country, which most of our business is in elective surgeries. So we had to go through challenging rounds of pay cuts, furloughs, layoffs. The other part of it was our technologists travel. they get on planes, they, you know,

travel to different hospitals in different states. So that was really challenging to try to cross cover logistically, especially when people were not traveling and trying not to travel.

Jeff Holman (04:13)

wow. So so you had to navigate that. so you've got your own breakout moments probably, your own piv pivotal decisions you had to make during during that. happy to go into those if they if they come into play you know, in the things that you share and use to as tools and resources for the people you you work with today. but what would you say w what are some of the takeaways that you take from that CEO experience you have?

that carry over into how you now help CEOs with aerobus.

Logan Mcknight (04:45)

Yeah. So one of the biggest recurring themes is allowing your team to have ownership in the areas that they totally run and develop. my struggle as a CEO, especially because I was with the company for so long, was giving it pieces of it up and trusting the process to other people. And so honestly, I didn't learn some of these really

good lessons that I needed, probably until the tail end of being a CEO and maybe even afterwards when I when I was actually able to pause and reflect, you know, when you're in the thick of it, especially during COVID, I became the CEO maybe six months before COVID. so I really kind of was trial by fire every, you know, couple months getting new information and changes with the company. And what I was doing was trying to stay in the day to day

And then also look at the future and the vision and try to figure out where we needed to go. And I realized really quickly, you can't do that. You know, you can't be both putting out the daily fires and have the clarity, the energy you need to be looking at the future vision of the company.

Jeff Holman (05:52)

Yeah. I you know, but there's a there's kind of a I don't want to say contradiction, but there's kind of a conundrum, right? There's kind of this par paradox with ownership. 'Cause cause people who tend to have a lot of ownership mentality sometimes tend to over own things, right? Like you said. And that I don't know if that's a a a function of growing up in the business. I like to call it growing up in the business, right? You you move from one to one position to the next to the next, and all of a sudden you're the CEO, you're running it.

You know all the positions really well. You know where the you know where the things are happening right and you know where sometimes people cut corners if if that happens. But so what is how how do you balance that when you say, Okay, we've got this ownership mentality, but at the same time ownership mentality means that people at the top need to h need to move into a different ownership mentality than the than the, you know,

Directly accountable ownership mentality of somebody who's who's actually fulfilling the kind of the functional role. Those are different, right?

Logan Mcknight (06:55)

One hundred percent. I mean, I think I really struggled with that. I started as a VP and even transitioning into my CEO seat, like it it was really hard for me to let go. And I'm fortunate enough that I created a culture of people being able to tell me what was on their mind. And so the leaders that I had appointed, but wasn't truly giving them ownership, they let they let me know. They were they let me know that they were frustrated with how much they had to run through me and you know, the

lack of clarity around what they they were allowed to own from end to end versus what I needed to be looped in it with and versus what I needed to approve. And so we developed the system of those were the three categories. When I put somebody in a leadership position, I would work with them of like what do they own end to end? What do I need to be looped in in? And then what do I need to approve before they do? And and that list is something that shifts as trust develops and they get more competent in their role. But

I realized laying those like very literally writing these three the three things down and going through it with them helped establish ownership and then the confidence for me to be able to step back.

Jeff Holman (08:05)

Yeah. so yeah, every company should probably have those three things written down. So if if if our audience didn't write them down, they should write them down right now, right? So it was own end to end and then looped in and approve.

Logan Mcknight (08:18)

Yeah, I say owned, informed, and then approved.

Jeff Holman (08:22)

Okay. Owned, informed, and improved. Even simpler. I should probably be taking notes myself on this right now.

Logan Mcknight (08:29)

I mean it's it's I even have struggle. I have a team that helps me on on my consulting side and and I still struggle with it. I mean, it's hard, especially when it's something that you grew up in or it's your brand in your business to, you know, delegate, but it's it it just makes things so much clearer and easier for the team and so much less frustration and disappointment on your end.

Jeff Holman (08:50)

for sure. I I wanna I'm gonna ask a really basic question though. So and I'm gonna I'm gonna throw it. I'm gonna I'm gonna give the credit to the audience because I'm sure somebody in our audience will want want to know the answer to this question. But really it's me asking the dumb questions too, right? So th like it's easy to say owned, informed, and approved. Where do you write this down? 'Cause I 'cause like I think we can have all these things and we say, well, here's how it's gonna work. And then our team shifts, and then we to say again.

Well, here's how it's gonna work. And then we you know, the environment shifts, we get different customers and we say, here's how it's gonna work. And if we just keep saying here's how it's gonna work and we don't have like a a place to for all this stuff to land and live, then we're really not quite we're really we're really failing in a way to to to to truly adopt that system. Do do you get down into the weeds? I mean, that feels like weeds to me, right? Like like if you have to tell people, well, you gotta write this down, you gotta write it down, here's where you might write it down.

Is that I I mean, it maybe it's just the mechanics of it, but I I would guess it sometimes you're like, listen, we've gone over this. Did you write it down yet? Did you put it somewhere? What what do you recommend people do for that?

Logan Mcknight (09:59)

I mean, always write it down. I think the the great thing too with the age we're in of like AI note takers. I mean, I think every meeting we go in has three AI note takers for every one person now. is so you know, you can have a living document. I always suggest that, you know, I think whether you're a Microsoft based company or you're using Google Workspace or something else, is just have a document that both of you guys are in and connecting with. I mean, as far as when you're doing your one on ones with them.

They should be the conversation of, okay, do we need to shift anything over? Is there anything that you feel like you need to own end to end? And I always ask my leaders, I mean, that's what huge question is like I want them to push back on me. If they feel like I'm being looped in or I'm approving a process that they should really own end to end, I want them to fight for that. I want them to tell me why. but I want it to be really clear. So if they do something and I come back and I say, Hey, I really wish you would have looped me in, you know, it's

It's a conversation because we created the standard before. And if we don't write anything down, then chances are there'll be that, well, I thought you meant that I should do this. And that was what was coming up a lot. Was like, well, I thought you said this. and that started actually really aggravating me as a CEO. It's because a lot of times people will be like, Well, you told me that. And I'm like, and I I learned very quickly you put things in writing because things move quickly. You're in a lot of meetings.

and if you especially if you have a crucial conversation with somebody and need like to shift the way they're doing their job, put it in writing.

Jeff Holman (11:34)

Yeah.

I mean you've spoken like a true attorney here from from from my perspective. Like that's that that's been an an irony I've seen in in the legal field. you know, I've been an attorney for twenty years and working in the legal field for twenty five now, and I it's like w like we are extremely good at putting notes in the file based on client stuff as a CYA, right? Which funny note by the way, I was talking with some of my team and they're CYA that

That's an actual term? I'm like, yes, that's exact that's exactly what it means. It's an actual term. but but we're really good at at documenting things to the file when it covers our own potential liability or decision making. But when you get into the the just call it the governance of of a law firm, large or small, there's a lot of unwritten unwritten

What would you cultural things, right? Maybe is what you might call And so and so we don't we don't take the time, even in our profession, to document things the way that we that we do and we're used to doing in in a client setting. So that's kind of a an inconsistency that I've I've thought about as I've talked with my team and said, Hey, we've got a document we use Monday dot com for a lot of what we do. It just it ends up being a a good repository and we just build another board and sometimes we've got to clean up. But

But having that out there and putting putting all this in place for our team has been has been hugely beneficial.

Logan Mcknight (13:03)

And I mean, I think it's one of the things about it's hard. It's hard to force yourself to take the notes and put them somewhere. And then sometimes things move so quickly that, you know, something you put in, you know, ri put in writing last week already needs to be shifted and changed. one of the exercises I go through with CEOs when we start is and it's really honestly kind of painful for them to sit down and do this with me, is looking at their vision, the mission of the company and talking about the values and not just like

the three words that they have, you know, behind the front desk, the actual, like it actually how they show up. And that's where you start to talk about like where do you want your culture to show up? What kind of attributes do you want your team and people to have? And how does it show up with your clients and with each other as the team? And when you start having that conversation as the CEO, because you need to be the source of truth. Like people can, you know, if you're letting your your COO or other leaders kind of

you know, stay what stay where the culture is. It's gonna be like the worst game of telephone ever. And so you kind of need to become a drunk parrot as a CEO and just repeat, you know, these values and how they show up in the culture and instill in people like these core things and then of course their own spin and their own way of doing it, but they can understand like where the standard is as far as how you treat people and your clients.

Jeff Holman (14:24)

And I just want to repeat one thing, just so it's clear on the on our transcript, hopefully. you said drunk parrot, not drunk parent, right?

Logan Mcknight (14:33)

Drunk parrot. Yes, parrot, squawk.

Jeff Holman (14:36)

Yes. well so what does an engagement look like for you when you walk into somebody? We've got this this ownership conversation, we've got the mission, vision, culture or values conversation. What what is the what does that engagement look like? How does where does a value start to show up when you're working with with clients?

Logan Mcknight (14:56)

Yeah, and I, you know, I kind of should have shifted this as I've been working with more and more clients, realizing how important it is to do that like foundational work, as painful as it is when you first start, especially if there's you know, multiple layers of leadership. Like if you have a full C-suite, if you have founders, co-founders, or partners, they need to sit in the room and they need to agree. And a lot of times that's the the catch-all of like when problems happen later in our engagement.

There's nor normally they don't agree fully on like the values or the vision. and then also how do you pick your priorities? So it's really important to do that work. So I always start out with that when I'm doing, you know, a scaling engagement as far as like where do we need to focus on hiring the right people? And honestly, where in the team are things not aligning that maybe we need to make some changes. And that's a tough one too. It's always not just who do we need to add, but maybe who do we need to remove, right?

Jeff Holman (15:57)

Are we we're talking right people, right seats.

Logan Mcknight (15:59)

Right, people, right? And sometimes you can do that. Sometimes you can move people from one seat to another on the bus. that was, you know, I always that was kind of something I would tell my team if they felt like they were in the wrong seat, that we could talk about it. And it didn't automatically meet mean that they were going to be removed from the company, but maybe we could find that better position for them because we were scaling so quickly.

it worked out really well, but unfortunately, just sometimes people are not going to buy into the shift and the change that needs to happen when you're scaling.

Jeff Holman (16:30)

Well it and and I think if you find that, you know, downstream in the organization, it's kind of easier to say, well, we'll just make that change, we'll hire somebody else. Do you run into that sometimes where and you know, no names, but do you run into that sometimes where you have maybe people in the wrong seats at the founder level or at the executive level and and you kinda get to the point where you're like, I just don't know that I don't know that the team can find alignment with the you know, with with the makeup that we've got here.

Logan Mcknight (17:00)

yeah. I mean absolutely. I I even struggled with it when I was the CEO with my own team. I you know, I thought, okay, what happens behind conference room doors nobody knows about within our company. You better believe everybody feels it. You know, they feel the disconnect. And sometimes I think the struggle is is this founder who founded the company isn't always destined to be the CEOs at scales. They can be the CTO, they could be, you know, an advisor, but sometimes they just

don't have the clarity to be able to kind of leave the company and you need to bring in an outside CEO even to help. And that and that is like a little bit of an ego conversation and it's hard. But sometimes when I work with private equity, that's what they bring me in for is they're struggling with the founder. And so sometimes it's can't can we do this with them? Can we figure out a way to do it? or do we just need to get the right C O O underneath them?

to create a little bit of space between the day to day and where they're taking the company.

Jeff Holman (18:02)

Yeah, private equities no n the they're notorious for for coming in and replacing the CEO, replacing the founder, putting the founder into a you know, an honorary

Logan Mcknight (18:12)

If you're if you're not winning the Super Bowls, they they're gonna look at the coach, right?

Jeff Holman (18:16)

Exactly,

exactly. Hey, I I read somewhere else some of the stuff you do. I think you have an an altitude was it a altitude or altitude? I think it was altitude, right?

Logan Mcknight (18:25)

It is altitude at which so I'm based in the Pacific Northwest and I'm a pretty avid hiker and backpacker. And so one of the things I feel like I got a lot of clarity when I was dealing with COVID and being a CEO and like the trem like tremendous amount of pressure I felt like I was under and not being able to really talk to anybody about it, especially within my organization. I would hike and I found that, you know, like there was a lot of clarity at the top of the mountain that you get.

that you don't have when you're at the bottom. and that's where I kind of attributed like sometimes you are literally in the weeds, you are in the forest, and you need to get at a higher altitude to be able to see where you're going and have the clarity to also see the rest of the company from that view. And so trying to get the founders, the CEOs out of the weeds, out of the forest and actually to the right altitude so they can leave was kind of my my concepts of of working with them. And I do that

both through consulting with their companies and then also one to one advisory with them.

Jeff Holman (19:29)

Okay. Yeah. No, that that makes sense. Yeah, you actually touched on several different things there. you mentioned how you don't you CEOs can't necessarily turn to their team when they when they're, you know, you're seeking lots of different things, right? Wisdom or or comfort or, you know, a sounding board. You just can't do that. I think that's I think that's a core theme that we kind of come back to on the show quite a bit.

CEOs just are in a unique position. That's why we need to have communities, we need to have places we can turn to to learn and and connect with other CEOs because it you can't you can't just do that with you know, your your board members or your investors or your your employees or maybe even your spouse or your, you know, your close friends who are like, I don't I don't know what you're talking about, you know, that doesn't make sense. So

Logan Mcknight (20:19)

No, it's very isolating. It's lonely at the top, right? Yeah.

Jeff Holman (20:23)

Very very much so. But the top is a great place, as you mentioned, 'cause you get the gr great views. On a on a total non business related thing, do you have a do you have a favorite hike that you've done or a trek you've been on or what

Logan Mcknight (20:34)

mean, I I'm Mount Rainier, if for anybody who's visiting Washington or Seattle, is one of the most beautiful places I've ever I mean, it's like every tr where you turn is absolutely gorgeous. and I I'm very partial to Seattle in the summer. I think most people are. So I would say if you come out and you can get a hike in in the summer, it's it's well worth it.

Jeff Holman (20:56)

And if I'm not mistaken, there are some non technical routes up up Mount Rainier, is that right?

Logan Mcknight (21:00)

yeah. yeah. You can I mean there's paved, you know, is you can drive up the mountain. So you can you can cheat the whole system and you could just drive up there and get the great views.

Jeff Holman (21:10)

Got it. Got it. Okay. Well, I've done some backpacking hiking myself and I just just love love remembering all the all the times that I've been out at the top of the mountain. So but coming back to your altitude, so you so how do you move somebody who's who's in the weeds up to that higher ground? Like what are the what are the two or three things that you end up talking to them about or that you do to persuade them that

You know, this is this is gonna be worth the effort. The the hike will the hike, the views will all be worth it when you get the

Logan Mcknight (21:47)

Yeah. So I mean, first working with them and getting a real good sense of what they want to do, like what their mission is with the company, their vision and where they want to be in I you know, I honestly I try to stick to like three years. I try to make their t like even if they have a ten year goal, I'm like, what can we get done in three years to try to be like, let's speed up the timeline? 'Cause a lot of times what you want to do in ten years doesn't get done 'cause you think, I got I got all the time in the world.

So I try to kind of condense the timeline with them. And then once we realize that, we kind of stress test, you know, the things the company's been providing and doing. Does it fit into that vision? And then do their people fit into both the vision and the values that they believe are important for the company to be successful. And they want to a lot of times they're worried that as they scale, it's not going to feel like the same company. And reality is it won't. But you can still keep the

core parts that are really, really important and actually to like make it better and improve upon it and have something really unique if you just are able to sit down and identify what those things are. So I think that's the the the key thing. And once they do that, you know, sometimes it is two steps forward and one step back. Sometimes we'll be working together and they'll kind of I won't say regress, but you know, go back to old habits and, you know, shiny object syndrome of let's

This looks cool. Let's go do this. And it's like, okay, okay, okay. You know, sometimes my job is like keeping the ships in the channel, just making sure that we're going the direction that we talked about. And a lot of times we're stress tested against, you know, is this a real viable new direction or and does it align with your vision or is this a distraction? you know, and is this person that you're spending all this time with trying to course correct, is are they worth that? Or are they just not going to be part of the future vision?

And that's the reality of it. And you have to be taking care of, you know, obviously you're the captain of the ship. And so you have to take care of the entire ship and the entire crew's well being. So you can't sacrifice everything for one or two people or one venture. You really do have to think in big picture.

Jeff Holman (23:57)

Well, I I I you you you gave a way that you actually do work with CEOs with the bluntness there. You're like, yeah, sometimes it is gonna change and then you gotta get on board with it. That's like it's it's the I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sugarcoat this and tell you it's not gonna change. It's gonna change. Would you rather be deliberate about it or would you rather or would you rather have it changing around you without controlling it? Like absolutely those are your two options.

Logan Mcknight (24:21)

Yeah, I mean, I if anyone is, you know, if we work together, it's I I am blunt because I do appreciate that. And my end, I I moved to Seattle about 10 years ago, and it is the most passive aggressive place that I've actually ever lived. I remember I'm from the Midwest, and I remember someone told me, you know, you're you're so straightforward, almost like that was a negative thing. And I was like, thank you. What a compliment. So but yeah, I I

I want to give them the feedback. Like even if it's not what they want to hear, it's what they need to hear in the moment because that's what I would have wanted. I would have wanted somebody not to just say something to make me feel better. I wouldn't I want 'cause I didn't realize that when I became a CEO, I had a lot of people just telling me things that I wanted to hear, that they thought I wanted to hear, and not really giving me their honest feedback. And so I want to be that honest feedback for them.

Jeff Holman (25:13)

Yeah. No, I you you're never funnier than when you're the CEO, huh?

Logan Mcknight (25:17)

Right. Never more popular.

Jeff Holman (25:20)

Exactly. No, that I I love that. And I love that you're just coming to bring this all back around together, that that you're able to to to s look back on what you did as a CEO, see the things that you that maybe went well and the things that could have gone differently and and be able to bring that back bring that back in as you as you work with other CEOs. What what what would a CEO look like look for in their business or their day to day to to s to

to try to identify, hey, is now the time to bring in somebody like Goodnight Consulting to come in and and help me with this.

Logan Mcknight (25:57)

Yeah, I think one of the first indicators is their calendar. if they are not able to make any time for big picture strategy meeting, if they don't have like spots in their calendar, if their calendar is completely full going into every week, a lot of I think I looked at that as like, this is a sign of success. Look at all my meetings, you know, look at all my client calls. The reality is is if every week looks like that, you do not have the time to, you know, think of the big picture and really do the strategic work you need to do.

and the other thing is if you have if you you are in control of processes or you have other people in the business control of processes that only they own, only they are privy to. You know, I think in t in tech terms they call it the bus factor, meaning if someone gets hit by a bus, how many people need to get hit by a bus for this to break? And so if you have a bus factor of one.

That's a dangerous sign. And especially if you are that. Like I have a lot of CEOs I work with that are like, well, I never want to step away from the business. So I always want to be doing the invoicing. I always want to be doing the day-to-day operations. And the reality is the company can't scale if you're doing that. And they can't grow. You know, they can't spend time on themselves. And God forbid if something does happen to them or they want to step away or take time off. Like that's the the reality they need to think of too is we're all human.

Yeah shit happens. Sorry, excuse my language, but I mean that's the reality of it.

Jeff Holman (27:25)

Yeah, I know that that that makes sense. well, I appreciate all this. I'm actually sorry to have to cut this short. I like I feel like there's so much more we could talk about, but maybe we'll maybe we'll do that in a round two or something. But it's been it's been really good. How would somebody get a hold of you if they wanted to get in touch, learn more about your, you know, your perspective and altitude types of philosophies or work through mission and vision and core values or any of that stuff? What's what's the best way to connect?

Logan Mcknight (27:52)

Yeah, so my website is goodnightconsulting dot net. my email Logan at goodnight consulting dot net. And then I'm on LinkedIn just at Logan McKnight. I'm pretty active on there and and trying to connect with you know, businesses and put out content that helps them. so you can reach me any of those places.

Jeff Holman (28:12)

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking a little bit of time today and coming on to the breakout CEO. It's been great having you, Logan.

Logan Mcknight (28:19)

Yeah, this is awesome. Thank you.

Jeff Holman (28:21)

And to our to our the rest of our listeners out there that followed along this episode, thanks again for joining us on the Breakout CEO. Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you enjoy the show, a rating or a review goes a long way. Our mission is to promote the stories of breakout CEOs in scaling SaaS, e-commerce, and tech companies to equip peer CEOs with valuable perspectives and confidence.

Thanks again for joining us on this episode of the Breakout CEO. I'm Jeff Holman, and I'll see you next time.

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