The CEO Playbook for Building Trust Before You Build Demand

TRANSCRIPT SUMMARY:

00:00 Finding Joy in the Building Journey
01:17 Romney’s Career Thread Across Four Companies
03:16 From Digital Cameras to Industry Disruption
07:15 Why Founders Need Trusted Leadership Partners
12:43 Celebrating Milestones While Scaling a Business
14:15 Finding DryOut and Partnering With Its Founder
16:21 How Intellectual Property Creates an Unfair Advantage
19:08 The Accidental Invention Behind DryOut
22:09 Building the Gore-Tex of Moisture Removal
29:10 Evolving From Consumer Brand to Ingredient Brand
36:45 The Board Meeting That Changed DryOut’s Direction
59:16 Scaling Through Brand Partners and Military Applications

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Romney Williams (00:00)

We are running as fast as we can on a bridge. With each step we take, we're just hoping that we've built the slat that our foot's gonna land on. We don't know what the next slat is or what's around the corner until we till we come upon it. And so just embrace that. But I believe that God created us to be builders. So when we're building, it's just incredibly fulfilling. So I'm just enjoying I'm just enjoying the moment. You know, find joy in the journey. That is a fast, much faster path. Talk about

You know, speed to market, but path to revenue for us. The moat of intellectual property. The second moat is the brand.

Jeff Holman (00:34)

Welcome back, everybody, to the Breakout CEO podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Holman, with Intellectual Strategies. We're a law firm that works with a lot of up-and-coming brands and companies, and we we we get to talk with CEOs about things that are going on in their companies. That's usually confidential information, so we can't we can't share those secrets, but we we've got this podcast that we've started talking with CEOs and advisors to CEOs who are scaling companies, and we get to see some of the behind the scenes problems, insights, solutions.

And and so it's really special that we have people like Romney Williams here today to help us see some of these things, share some of the things that he's going through with his business. Romney, it's really great to have you on the show.

Romney Williams (01:15)

Thank you, Jeff. Really excited.

Jeff Holman (01:17)

Yeah, I'm I I'm I'm so glad. Well we we did our icebreaker segment recently and and I mentioned that you and I connected about twenty years ago. I I'm excited for this part of the recording because I get to hear in more detail the things that have happened between then and and now and and of course we'll dive into some of the specifics of your your current company dry out and hear how you've been doing building that over the last five years or so. So great to have you, great to reconnect.

if there was something that you were to say, not that we're gonna just summarize in in one sentence, but what would you say over the last twenty years is a thread that kind of has followed with you over the course of your career?

Romney Williams (02:02)

Yeah. actually I I can see a really clear thread. And it was unintended. It is professionally I've had the opportunity to lock arms with really smart, ambitious people looking to disrupt an industry. And later in that journey, maybe seven or eight years into that journey, another thread was joining founders that didn't want to be CEO, didn't want to lead out.

And they're looking for someone that could it's called you know, be the driver on that bus. So I've had the opportunity to do that four times actually. So there's not a common thread in terms of industry, category. it's just it's that. It's locking arms with founders and help them raise their baby.

Jeff Holman (02:50)

very cool. Very cool. Well, so when we first met, you were you w were with a company that I think had sold some technology, or maybe the business as a whole to a client that I was working with. from there though, I think you've been a a a SaaS company and you've done Inzo Rings and maybe something else in between and and now you're at dry out. Give us give us a flavor for you know, the kind of the the quick hit on on what happened at each of those places.

Romney Williams (03:16)

Yeah, sure. So several chapters in the book in my career. That company referenced early on was so some of us are old enough to remember there was an era in the world where digital cameras didn't exist, right? You're our kids can't imagine life without TikTok or Zoom or whatever. so I had the really unique opportunity to join some of the not only most intelligent but most intentional and visionary people I've ever worked with that.

they've spun out of MIT and they developed the image sensor with the digital camera technology that sits behind the lens, whether it's in your smartphone, your car, computer, which we're looking at each other visually. Yeah. So it was an image sensor that converts photons or light into an image. And it was so it was bleeding edge, cutting edge, proprietary technology. And I had the opportunity to join on as the first person on the business side. Wow. And

with the team figure out what's our go to market strategy, how do we position this technology, how do we convince old companies like a Kodak or a Poloid at the time to embrace the digital camera revolution before they're disrupted. Right. as film companies. So that was really interesting. Had the chance to do that and love that. Have some great memories and insights there. And that was we were acquired by your client. And so when you reached out you were asking about some of our

marketing of our IP and all that. So that's just s such a small world. So that was that was amazing. And and I I still, though I get no credit for the innovations that we did, it seems like every time I get in my car, if I put it reverse and I see, you know, yeah camera in the back or I'm on a call like this, I reflect on slides in our p investor PowerPoint, you know, our deck that showed this technology as a concept. Wow. And now that it's just

It's everywhere and it it's so that's really, really cool. So that that was really what got me launched in wanting to be a part of disruption and teaming up with with really smart, you know, big vision people with who are with values that I I shared. So yeah, since then I've played in print technology, insurance technology, enterprise SaaS, consumer products with Enso Rings, which is a premium silicone ring.

Direct consumer brand, great people, very values driven. And yeah, and then dry out. That's just been an unintended but just amazing chapter. I feel really fortunate to be a part of.

Jeff Holman (05:54)

Well and I have two questions two follow-ups on that. Going back to the cameras, w for those who, you know, maybe don't remember anything other than awesome images and great frame rates, like what w what was the resolution or how would you describe the the quality of the camera then in today's terms?

Romney Williams (06:13)

That's interesting. We didn't use the term quality. We used the term resolution. Right. So that's basically how many pixels in an image, which for in that time of i in the world, that was because they w people want to know how large, if they were to print it, how large could the print be? Right. And so our first image sensor was it was a VGA resolution. It was six forty by four eighty. So you were lucky if printed it looked decent

at two by three inches. So just teeny. But it was okay to view it on a computer screen. And then we had the next breakthrough was a one point three megapixel camera. So maybe that prints a three by five and then we had a two megapixel. And now it's what, I don't even know. I d I don't even know.

Jeff Holman (07:00)

I don't know what's the back.

It depends on which camera you're talking about on your phone, right? 'Cause there's now like five of

Romney Williams (07:07)

They're all one up in the n each other. So yeah, good point. Good point. Anyway, so so pretty pretty remarkable the yeah.

Jeff Holman (07:15)

I I I I I I love I love looking back. I mean it ages me and maybe maybe all of us a little bit. But but it's cool to see 'cause you talked to earlier we're chatting in our icebreaker segment about, you know, just kind of this I'm gonna call it the calling to build, right? What like we have a yeah, we we have this calling to build and to create and and that's that's part of it. as you've progressed through these different companies, I'm curious what your did your roles

in the companies also seem to grow and progress? I mean, at that point in time you were the first business guy with the you know, with the company. Now you're the CEO. Was that a pretty linear progression over over the course of time or did it kind of jump around?

Romney Williams (07:56)

Yeah, the opportunities when I've had that I've had to lead in a company. The the first time it happened, I was I was consulting for a founder who had a really big vision in in fintech in the financial services world. And I didn't know the industry at all, other than just being a consumer. And what I realized was I had a little bit of wisdom for my pain and some insights of

what founders go through when they've birthed something they believe is really special and they want help is gaining their trust, understanding, helping them to find their vision and start to plot a course, albeit really hard to see the future. How how do how does he get there? How you know, how do they get there? And then do you want help? And if so, in what areas? Where are your strengths? Where are your shortcomings?

Gaps in the plan, gaps in the skill set, resources, maybe I can help. And so it just started with that kind of a conversation and then a realization that a lot of times domain expertise is obviously valuable, but what I've seen in startups, especially when it's just a founder there with an idea, it's a product, it's a service, it's a big vision, there's just a lot that needs to be done, a lot of heavy lifting. And, you know, you're I'm a big

I I I like the framework of a minimum viable product, which is you have hypothesis, right? Scientific method, you build it, a really rough V one, you test it, you measure what do you learn, and then apply those learnings and repeat, make it a little bit better, understand to get to product market fit. So it's just really being willing to roll up your sleeves, check ego at the door, hopefully. Yeah. And just grind. And be very comfortable being uncomfortable.

And make sacrifices. And so that I think that that's important when it comes to trust. Because being a founder, I've never I've been a founder on my own, but it's a it's very lonely. So lock arms is someone where there's that inherent trust of, hey, if anyone's gonna figure out, I think we are. So I think that was

Jeff Holman (10:11)

And you get the excit the excitement from the founder, right? Like the the founders already are excited. They they have the vision. They're now their vision their vision is way out there. This is a billion dollar company, right? Yeah. They don't as you mentioned, they don't know the steps at all. When we talked in the icebreaker, you you were talking, you know, we we referenced both kind of building the airplane as as you're falling. And you mentioned you brought up the awesome imagery of of laying the slats down on the bridge as you're running across the bridge.

Like th there's the there's a superpower there 'cause the the founders, the creators, the inventors, they're like, I see the other side of the of the canyon. Like that's where we're gonna be. But but laying down those slats one at a time for ten thousand slats or whatever it takes to get across the across the canyon, that they're not mo most founders who are great at seeing the long term vision struggle, as you mentioned, with the the step by step process to get there. Just a quick note about our guests.

I host the Breakout CEO podcast to share behind-the-scenes insights from scaling businesses. As an attorney, I see the real challenges leaders face long before success becomes public. But clients' stories have to stay confidential. So we invite guest CEOs to share their own moments of struggle and success. I'm so grateful to our guests and my team at Intellectual Strategies for making this show possible. Now, let's get back to the show.

Romney Williams (11:39)

Or it's there's just so much to do and it's such a lonely journey that just having someone by your side doing it can can make a big difference. And so that's a role that I have tried to

to fill and it it I generally mean this. It's like a sacred stewardship that I feel has been, you know, granted to me is to help someone, you know, raise figuratively speaking, their baby, their startup, their concept. Cause they man, it's just it's lonely doing that on your own. And then it's still really hard doing it as a duo or a trio, but

Yeah. So my my hope is people understand my motives are good. Is there self interest? Yeah, you bet. Because the exhilaration being part of it, like there's nothing for me like that adrenaline of the planning and the execution and just hitting it hard. That's an amazing that's an amazing drug, the adrenaline that's generated. At least for me.

Jeff Holman (12:43)

Are there a couple of times along the way where you had some of those those adrenaline highs, maybe hitting hitting certain milestones or building something a little bit bigger than than you guys thought was possible at these at these prior companies?

Romney Williams (12:55)

Yeah. Yeah. And that really can keep you going. And and a lot of times it's it may be an indicator the outside world think is, well, that's not a big deal. But you you hit a milestone or have a breakthrough that can just it just keeps you going. Yeah. And you've got to look for those. And and I had a mentor that was really good at just saying, Stop and smell the roses, though you're never satisfied, 'cause you're always there's a a gap between where you are.

And where you want to be. And I love this book. I don't know if you've read The Gap and the Game, but similar con concept, which is a lot of our dissatisfaction, lack of happiness as as humans lies in the gap between where we want to be or where we should be and where we actually are. And so can we measure backwards? See how far we've come. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. And and if you're a high achiever, which I know you are, and have huge aspirations, it's it's important to stop and smell the roses or look and

Measure backwards.

Jeff Holman (13:55)

I will accept your designation as a high achiever and try to live up to that. And I'll check out the I'll check out the book. so so five years ago, you know, this is you know, maybe during COVID or around that time, you decided take a swing at dryout. What why you and why dryout?

Romney Williams (14:15)

So when I was trying to figure out what what does the next chapter look like, I knew I wanted to find an opportunity to help a founder launch and grow something that had enormous potential, that had IP, and that's obviously one of your areas of expertise, but had legitimate proven intellectual property.

A technology that would open up big opportunities for consumers. And but how do you you know how do you find that? A founder that's looking for help. And so that's not something you just you know find talking to people and scouring on LinkedIn. But I was introduced by a friend to an incubator here in Utah called RevRead. And I was meeting with the founder, CEO of RevRoad, Darren Hill, and was explaining what have I explained to you.

Here's some things I've done looking for an opportunity to help a founder raise their baby. And he said, Wow, I think I know where we met. Let me tell you about this company. And he proceeded to tell me about Dry Out, had a different name at the time, but said, We really think this thing could be enormous. And we've done some vetting and they're in our portfolio company or portfolio, and we're looking for a CEO. And so the introduction was made to the CEO.

And I told him my story, and we talked for probably three hours. And he had he had unearthed or birthed something really interesting. And I just said, hey, look, I I think for both of us, a date before marriage concept is really good. Let's do 90-day try-by consulting. Let's figure out what the role would be, like clearly defined role at the 90 day 91 if we if we decide to keep going. But

Let's just do a this try by and see if we can work well together. I needed to understand the market, the technology, and I just have a lot to learn. And so that was what started that journey.

Jeff Holman (16:21)

What prompted you to be looking for IP as maybe one of the factors in the business you wanted to get into? Was were your prior were some of the prior companies not built on as strong of IP or 'cause that's a curious not every CEO or every business person says IP's gotta be part of the part of the equation. And not every business has it, right? So what what prompted you to to say that?

Romney Williams (16:43)

Yeah, well, I was very fortunate way back when with that MIT spin-off that was called Small Camera Technologies, is the IP that we had was such a game changer. And we could prove the performance data was so much better than everyone else that we were taken very seriously, even though there were six of us, and we were going up against literally Toshiba, Hitachi, Sony, Micron, National Semiconductor. It was it was brutal. But

We had our IP was truly the best in the world and the data proved it. And that's an unfair advantage. And so I found myself looking for that, but that's hard to find as well. And so I was in companies where we had IP, but that IP might be

you know, a a SAS platform or some code that was kind of unique, but what's the differentiator really other than the brand and the customer base and

Jeff Holman (17:42)

Maybe maybe softer IP we might call that.

Romney Williams (17:43)

The

team, software IP, yeah. And so and then when I was with Enso Rings, it was really impressive that one of the founders the origin story was

A hundred thousand times a year in the United States, someone experiences what's called ring avulsion where a metal ring sh either s you know, sh de gloves, tears off fingers, like really horrific stuff.

Jeff Holman (18:06)

Wait, a hundred thousand times a year?

Romney Williams (18:08)

yeah. Documented in the United States. It's called Ring Avulsion. Yeah. Jimmy Fallon made it famous when he had a kitchen accident, almost lost his finger with this ring.

Jeff Holman (18:17)

yes.

Romney Williams (18:17)

Yeah, crazy. That was years ago. But what made Enso Rings really unique was the other founder when they decided let's do a company of, you know, silicone rings from a safety, comfort, low cost perspective, it was he just said, I'm not gonna be comfortable or satisfied.

Until the silicone ring I wear on my finger looks like the copper ring that my wife gave me when we got married. Like how can we infuse copper into silicone and make it look not like a cheap plastic, you know, piece of garbage or something like with a quarter at the grocery store and like the little, you know gumball

Jeff Holman (18:54)

I don't wanna look like the bracelets that you get at every every event or you used to get at every event.

Romney Williams (18:58)

Yeah.

Yeah. And so anyway, he just went mad scientist and he figured out how to infuse precious metals inside the process of creating a silicone ring. And so it has the sheen and luster of metal, obviously different colors inside or different excuse me, colors. And so that breakthrough, that was true IP, it was patented and it was just a game changer to so I had a little bit of taste of that again. And then with dry out, what was interesting

You know, the Genesis story for Dry Out, the founder story, which I think a lot of great companies, it just starts with, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. And the founder, Elliot, living in Florida, he completely drenched his iPhone when he was washing his fishing boat and he didn't know how to fix it. I mean, he's worried he could see it was starting to act really weird. And so he went to Best Buy and asked for, Do you have a solution that will pull moisture out of my phone? And one of the sales associates said, I don't know, maybe like a bowl of rice. And that's a fact a lot of us have heard about.

Turns out that there's no science behind that 'cause rice will absorb moisture obviously, but it doesn't pull moisture out of a phone or whatever.

Jeff Holman (20:06)

It's not like it's sucking it through the little ports, the port holes on the phone.

Romney Williams (20:15)

And it doesn't work. And we have data that shows literally like don't waste the rice. and

Jeff Holman (20:20)

Man, we can't we can't air this part of the show. That's gonna that's gonna so many people are gonna f feel like they their hopes and dreams for their phones have just been cracked.

Romney Williams (20:28)

We have a solution for that. That's the j wait. Yeah. Yeah. So he ended up trying that, didn't work. Grain of rice got stuck in the charging port, you know, the the bottom of the phone. And a couple days later he had an absolute light bulb moment, an aha moment of wait, the moisture wiki nylon in my shirt. If I were to impregnate that with silica gel packets that he found at a beef jerky bag.

If I made a sandwich of that material and stitched it in the form you know, the form factor of the

basically a pouch for a phone with that have saved my phone and so he tinkered with that and turns out yes that it was genius and he was able to patent it and the patent was really broad for, you know, a wet phone rescue pouch, but turns out it works for AirPods that are in your pocket and go through the watch, the key fob that, you know, falls in the snow and and then so he started on this journey and sold pouches to QBC and Staples and

Then he's a firearm enthusiast. And as a lot of people know, when you know, when when moisture and air meet on metal, that's oxidation. So it's r formation of rust and corrosion. We see it in our tools at home, right? You just see it all over the place, right? And he was experiencing that with firearms, just living in the southeast, and he realized, wait, that same little pouch for a phone, I can make a little bit bigger, and now it works for a tablet, also works for a handgun or ammo or camera lens, right? So that

helped him with the evolving, but he was it was a consumer products brand, just selling these products.

Jeff Holman (22:09)

When you say pouch, this is this is like a like a bag that I would put my electronics into. Is that what is that what th that is?

Romney Williams (22:16)

Exactly. Yep. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. And so yeah. So anyway, so when when I was introduced, they're looking for a CEO, having come off an opportunity where I was on the team, you know, leading Enso Rings, great experience, awesome company. And but being in that world where, you know, inventory, consumer products, building a consumer brand, educating the market was just not something I was looking for. And

Going back to early in my career, we talked about when I was with the MIT spin-off, our business model was was called an ingredient brand. So we were like an OEM ingredient brand strategy. So we were similar to if you have a Gore-Tex rain jacket, right, or a pair of trail running shoes with you know, Vibram soles, right? These are ingredients in someone else's product. And like an Intel inside model. So that's what we did in the digital camera world. We were the first company to have cameras inside a car.

2006 Mercedes S class. So having learned and run that playbook years ago, that's always been back in my mind. I'd love to do that again, be an ingredient brand and help really cool brands, other companies make their products better or launch into new categories. And so when I saw what they were doing with the dryout technology, I actually saw

an opportunity of like, why would we be a consumer products brand if we could be the Gore Tex of Moisture Removal? And

Jeff Holman (23:48)

Right.

Romney Williams (23:49)

we can get into the story and some of the breakthroughs, but that was really like, that's interesting to me.

Jeff Holman (23:54)

Yeah, we'll get into the breakthroughs. But that's said another way. I haven't heard somebody say ingredient brand before, but I know what you're talking about. I've got I've got clients who who are integrated into some of these, you know, these product development or distribution stacks, so to speak. But yeah, but essentially ingredient brand means you're gonna partner with somebody who's got an existing distribution or you're gonna partner with somebody who's doing other pieces of the of the production or sales process, right? So it's really a partnership play in in essence.

Romney Williams (24:23)

It is. And important distinction about it is the ingredient brand is a component in someone else's finished good. Yeah. Right. So a YKK zipper on your jacket. Or again, Gore-Tex in your snowboard pants. So Gore-Tex is the an ingredient that makes it more innovative, obviously waterproof. And the North Face or Arcterix or whomever, Columbia, they could choose from all sorts of different material suppliers, but they choose Gore-Tex because one

The membrane is waterproof and it performs really well. But two, there's some brand equity to be able to say these pants have Gore-Tex in them compared to the you know the pants that don't. They can charge more and there's more brand, you get brand equity, customer loyalty. so that's that's why it's called an ingredient brand, like the Intel inside a computer.

Jeff Holman (25:17)

So it's so is so your background really this this wasn't just a a a random jump from from one company to the next company. This was you saying, I've got I I like I understand the value of IP, I've done consumer facing stuff, I've I've been part of ingredient brand model. And so this is kind of coming together, bringing together a lot of the different things that that you had done and probably built strengths in, it sounds like.

Romney Williams (25:44)

Yeah, not intentional. Meaning I I I wasn't thinking I'm building a foundation so that I then can launch an ingredient brand in the material space, right? But it was just yeah, it was very foundational. And then these different chapters that I've had the option to be a part of, it gave me lenses through which I could view this opportunity with dry out, which is yeah, let's let's don't be a consumer brand. Let's be an ingredient in

hundreds of products launched by, you know, dozens and dozens of different brands.

Jeff Holman (26:18)

What did the team look like? Was it was it really just the founder at that point and you joined him? So it's so you're like the the two of you just essentially co founder mode and let's let's take it. Was he selling at the point at that point, making the product?

Romney Williams (26:32)

Yeah, so finished goods they're being sourced at the time from China. Touches for phones, gun bags. And they're being sourced from China and selling primarily online e commerce and then some on Amazon and then in the wholesale channel, so through retailers. Okay. Sporting goods stores. And but pretty hard time to do it. It was it was during those early days of COVID and it was it was tricky. It was challenging. But so yeah, he was very gritty. Elliot is just

He is a grinder, like nothing's gonna stop him, and I really admire that. And that absolutely is beyond imperative for any entrepreneur is just incessant you know, drive and and bias for action.

Jeff Holman (27:16)

Yeah, because if he was doing all these things by the time you joined him, I would guess he was he was in the game for eight or ten years leading up to that point.

Romney Williams (27:25)

It'd been a few years, yep, that he was doing it and just doing it on his own. And this incubator Revro that he had partnered with, they provided some fractional services. Right. So some marketing, some legal, but but just again talking about that loneliness of the founder, he was he was definitely all alone. And he was in Florida and this team was in you know, Utah that was provided some support. So yeah, so I I I'm big on functional ownership, diagramming out of the functional org chart.

There needs to be an owner for each of those, even if it's only you know, it's one name in each box, but it might be just two people's names that's all over them.

Jeff Holman (28:01)

Everywhere. Right.

Romney Williams (28:02)

Right. And so so we did that early on, and then just and my goal was how do we get him to a place where his real strength and passion was in selling. And so what can I take off his plate? But I found very quickly I I I have some strengths, I have a lot of weaknesses.

I'd look at this org chart and say, Man, if I could fire myself from most of these roles, I would, but I can't. And some it's just, yeah, I own it. And some accountable, but I yeah, we got conversations. I'd Elliot, you know I can't I'm not doing anything there, right? As long as you know like I'm aware I own it, but it's literally just parked over there. I can't even think about it. So you got a stat break every day.

Jeff Holman (28:44)

What was the growth like then? I mean, going from one to two it probably feels really good, but it doesn't doesn't mean you've got a full team at that point. So as you're as you're explaining, was the growth was it steady? Was it sporadic? did you I mean, did you try to shift quickly from the consumer into the ingredient ingredient method or like what did growth look like over the next couple years? Yeah.

Romney Williams (29:10)

So

interesting chapter. So I don't call it a pivot. I would call it an evolution or a graduation. Yeah. So when I joined, the company had been primarily e-commerce, so direct consumers. So company website, Amazon, and then some in the wholesale channel selling to retailers like sporting good stores and retail dealers. And what when I joined, there was inventory. And we took on more inventory as a consumer brand. And early on, what really interested me was

Again, let's be the Gore Tex of Moisture Removal. Let's partner with dozens of really performance driven brands looking to innovate. So they can create pouches, bags, sleeves, cases, but whatever gear you put inside, if there's moisture on or in the gear, from cameras to power tools to computers, you know, air pods, hearing aids, military gear, whatever it is, if moisture is on or in it, that's really bad. Yeah. It festers, you get electrical failure, you get lens fogging, you rust corrosion.

Pull that moisture out and trap it. So that's what our technology does. It's reusable, it's electricity free. So let's find those brands that want to do that. But what was this real challenge was here we were with inventory, gun bags, pouches, and obviously a dire need to figure out how to sell it. And we were challenged for lots of different reasons. And

Jeff Holman (30:32)

'Cause your cash. Your cash is tied up in inventory. Yeah.

Romney Williams (30:36)

tied up an inventory, really struggling with digital marketing. So acquiring customers on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Google, anything remotely tied to a firearm was like shadow banned or canceled or wouldn't be shown. And it was just a bag. We weren't selling a gun. And so that made it really, really hard to acquire customers, you know, come to our website,

Convert them and educate them about the the uniqueness of this technology. It's rust prevention for a gun or for tools. So that was just really hard. Those early days are hard of educating. So the the challenge, Jeff, was we've got the big vision was to be the Gore-Tex and Moisture Removal and build this big platform of we have our IP solve a huge problem and then help brand.

We call brand partners, help brand partners go to market with these really innovative, cool new products that that were only possible because of dry out. But how do we do that while being straddled with the challenges that inventory wasn't really selling through, took on debt to pay for the inventory. And it was just two of us. And there was so much going on. So that was really that was really challenging. So

Jeff Holman (31:56)

Did you also did you also look into stuff like 'cause a lot of people at this stage, especially when they launch their product, they're th they they say, Okay, option number one, I just wanna license this technology, make some money and and you know, and live my life. Option number two, somebody can buy it from me if it's if it's a good price. And then the last option is I'm gonna make the product and sell it to people. And and that's where people usually end up if they if they persist with it long enough because those other two paths are really hard, but

Did you guys also a as you're as you're doing the the the D to C version of the company that you that you joined, yeah, and thinking about the the you know, the partnership, the brand partner approach. and by the way, I you keep saying Gore Tex and they just like I I get the I get the Gore Tex side of it. but but there's a second dimension to it. Gore Tex is a waterproofing device. You guys are a you know, I I didn't I didn't catch that until the

the most recent time you mentioned Gore Text, I'm like, there's there's way more here than just a business model that you want to replicate. This is also a companion technology that you that you can sort of equate to i in in a sense. So we may get into that more. But but did you guys also say, hey, what about license what about just licensing it out? Like were you just exploring these things or was it pretty much we've got the one, we want to transition to the other and and that was the path.

Romney Williams (33:19)

I didn't know if licensing was the right model or if we would need to produce a finished good. Do we produce a ream of material and sell it to another brand? And then they would go to a factory, they would cut and sew. So let's say if we had camera gear bag, right? Because lenses get wet, batteries get wet. People who are photo enthusiasts, hobbyist professionals, they use their cameras in all weather, right? All conditions.

And then afterward, what do you do? You put it your bag and it just sits there. That's one of many examples of that's why there are billions and billions of dollars of products that are really ruined every year because of moisture. Unintentionally. But what do we do if we're working with a camera gear bag company, for example? And I had a really interesting unlock. And you asked how earlier, how do I maybe it's on the icebreaker? When I'm grappling with something, where do I go to find answers? And I'm

constant networker trying to pay it forward. I'm not just take hopefully not just take, take, take, but have really good dialogue with smart people, especially if they're open about like, yeah, this is actually really hard. I I'm not just, I don't bat a thousand. Like I whiff a lot. I have broken bat, you know, hits and all that. Like it's it's hard. So just learn together and ask questions and be be vulnerable. And I was introduced to someone who had been in the

an ingredient brand and the the general manager of an ingredient brand and she said at the end of the conversation she said can I give you some like key learnings that might be advice and I said please I'm a student of the game please yes I'm so excited to meet a fellow ingredient brand CEO and she said if we had licensed our technology a long time ago

The IP runs its course and now it's no longer covered. And someone, you know, they obviously couldn't they don't have the patent protection. She said, but also we have special know-how when we're making this ingredient, this material, that if we were had taught companies that were buying our material, if we had taught them how to make it on their own or their factories how to make it,

Jeff Holman (35:41)

Yeah.

Romney Williams (35:42)

they wouldn't have, they wouldn't need us. They could just knock us, knock us off.

Jeff Holman (35:45)

That would have been their own expiration.

Romney Williams (35:48)

Yes. So I s and so I realized in that moment I said, thank you. Cause I've been grappling with do we license, do we produce and sell something, the finished product? And I said, you just answered that question. Thank you so much. So the licensing component component for us is is any product that's launched with dry out, it do we do require a dry out the brand to be on it. That makes it more premium because it has this functionality of, you know, active moisture management.

Right. And so brand partners actually want it on there, but similar to again Gore Tex on my snowboard jacket. That's why

Jeff Holman (36:21)

Yeah.

Romney Williams (36:22)

I keep using that example 'cause we're pretty

Jeff Holman (36:24)

That makes sense. Well as so as you as you did this transition as you built into the the the brand the ingredient brand model, did it was it smooth? Where w what were the what were the rough spots to to make that transition in addition to managing cash that was tied up in your inventory? And like like where did where did things go right and where did they where did they struggle?

Romney Williams (36:45)

So while we were struggling immensely to sell through our inventory, in part because domain expertise, sometimes it's it's good to be an outsider and come into a new industry because you see it with fresh eyes. You don't have preconceived notions, you don't think you have all the answers, you don't even care to ask the questions. But domain expertise, of course, can be extremely valuable because then you're authentic, you understand the consumer base. In this case, with a gun bag brand.

I w I felt s like a foreigner in a foreign land. Is I I wasn't my own customer to get gun bags, to need a gun bag. And so it was just all wrong. Like we'd go to trade shows and we'd set up a booth and it's like, my gosh, they must look at me like I didn't pretend to be something that I wasn't, but I was excited about the bag, but I didn't really need it. And it was just, my gosh, this is so off. But we had inventory that we needed to sell.

Really key moment in our story as a company is I called the board meeting. This was three and a half years ago, so 18 months in. And I said, This is gonna be the longest board meeting we've ever had. I need four hours. And we have a lot to talk about. And and I started it by saying, there are two themes for this meeting. The first is

There's this concept of strong opinions loosely held. Some of us have a very strong opinion and have strong opinion that being a gunbag company is right for us. Please hold that loosely. Second theme: good,

Jeff Holman (38:34)

Is

Romney Williams (38:35)

better, best. And I said, in my view, and I'm gonna make a case today, good being a gun bag brand is.

Barely good. Being again, the gore-tex of moisture removal of an ingredient brand with this embedded technology, working with other companies, help them innovate and launch products. Being the gore-tex of moisture removal is best. And that's where we need to go. And then I said, You might completely disagree with me. This might be revealing that I'm the wrong guy and you should kick me off the bus. I shouldn't be not only should not CEO, I shouldn't be on the bus, but please hear me out. I'm going to make a case for it. And

So I then presented that and I said, okay, so what's this gonna take? I said, one, we're gonna go around the table and every needs, everyone gets a vote. I need to hear it, yay or nay. And we need to be aware of something. I don't know how long this is gonna take. I don't know how hard it's gonna be. And but it's gonna feel like we're barely flying. We finally are caught caught flight. We're in the air, but I'm gonna steer the plane downward toward the ground.

Jeff Holman (39:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Romney Williams (39:41)

It's gonna appear like we're in a tailspin. And I believe we'll be able to pull up before we hit the ground with this new business model. But bear with me, we're gonna run out cash, we're gonna run out of fuel, but I believe it's worth it. And the answer from all the board members was you have our support, but go sell those gun bags. So that was three and a half years ago. And wait that

Jeff Holman (40:04)

Pep talk resulted in just i everybody saying, Okay, let's go. Let's

Romney Williams (40:08)

Said,

let's go. They said we we agree, but we've got inventory, go sell those gun bags. Got it. So so then it was, and then I told the board and the founder, so I'm not going into hiding and I'm not reckless intention. Well, maybe I'm maybe it was intentional recklessness, but I cannot even think about gun bags anymore. I need to spend eighty percent of my time on focus on building this platform with this new business model.

An ingredient brand strategy, working with OEMs, brands, and it's so bear with me. Just trust me on this one. And that was really hard for lots of reasons. Because so many unknowns, education, credibility. And I would sit down with CEOs or heads of product of brands, and I show them our little samples of products you're trying to sell. And they would be like, Can you envision this in your own product? Sometimes it could, sometimes it couldn't. but what we lacked was data.

is we had really cool stories of people, you know, went on a hunt and I, you know, pheasant hunting or waterfowl hunting and it was my rifle was soaked. It fell in the pond or whatever. And then I put it in your bag and got home and opened up and it was like it was dry and it was bone dry and it was you know no rust. Like, how'd you do that? So we had these success stories. But we needed data. And so I lined up, I was introduced to someone in the chemical engineering department here locally at the University of Utah.

And we sat down and said, we need help getting performance data, basically third party independent. Can you help us s you know, show people how this performs compared to we always compare to rice, bowl of rice for a phone or AirPods or whatever, silica gel packets for other objects, or like a plug-in dehumidifier you put in a gun safe. So these they're different, you know, solutions for

moisture management of devices and pro and hard goods, but we had to show how much better dryout was. And so once we had that data, major unlock, then I could go back to these CEOs and these brands and say, like, look, this works. And they'd usually have their own success story of the pouch I gave them. It's like, I was in a hot tub the other night and my son's phone that was on the side just slip slipped in and pulled it out and that pouch again.

Jeff Holman (42:29)

Get me?

Romney Williams (42:31)

Yeah, did it work? Of course it works. You know, we'd get those

stories all the time. So we so building the credibility took a long time.

Jeff Holman (42:39)

I can only imagine how I mean y you presented that story about the about going to the board meeting as like, Hey, here's how we're doing it. I'll bet there were some nerves. there's a little bit of anxiety going in there saying, Well, I know what I'm gonna say and I hope they respond the way I want them to respond, but who knows, right? That's that's that's not an easy you made it sound easier than I I imagine it was. the other thing is the the the w going back to the

concept of putting the plane putting the plane, you know, the the already low flying plane into a tailspin and then telling the board, hey, I can't, I can't focus on gun bags. I can't focus on selling D to C gun bags right now. I mean that that's that seems na once they've bought into the decision of where the plane is going to go once it comes out of the tailspin, like it feels like a kind of a natural, natural decision that they've already bought into to say, yeah, don't spend time on the D to C. That that'd be like a

pilot trying to save the plane coming, you know, going it from a dive to to saving it and saying, well, I don't have time to make sure everybody's got their seatbelt on. Somebody else better do that, right? Like I I got other stuff I gotta focus on, like like the ground that's coming at us at at four hundred miles an hour or whatever it is. so so that c that kind of seems like that maybe is a a more naturally accepted position once the board is bought in. Is that fair to say it that that way?

Romney Williams (44:04)

Yeah, unfortunately, we had built up some trust, some two way trust where we knew that we were doing our best and it just was not. It just wasn't what we had wanted as a business. Yeah. You know, selling consumer products. It just wasn't. The use case was enormous. The market size and also by the way, I did team up with a really smart guy that helped me with a market sizing study.

Before AI could just do that in, you know, two minutes and cloud. But that was huge too, to show like, okay, this is real. Now we've got to find the brands, the brand partners in each of these various categories to convince them that they should launch their own products that have that are engineered with dry out to solve this moisture problem. So we started to peep talk with people who were military suppliers. I mean, think about drones.

Optics, drone controllers, the goggles, you know, night vision optics, yeah, of

Jeff Holman (45:09)

Yeah.

Romney Williams (45:09)

course, guns and ammo, sensitive equipment is what they call it. There's so many electronics now that are exposed to moisture all the time. And it's a huge problem. And they're already buying bags and you know, kits and cases and all that. So how can our technology provide an extra benefit? You know, you think about gear protection.

And there have been these two gap two categories of either we make the gear itself waterproof, which is really hard to do typically, or we provide a protective case, like a pelican case. We literally have created and pioneered a third category in gear protection, which is active moisture removal. It's literally a new category. But educating brands about that, what's nice is I had a call with two different companies this morning, potential brand partners in very different industries.

One is storage and organizing in like buildings and the other is in outdoor sports where you're playing with a lot of water outdoor recreation. And of course they get it. Like, yeah, stuff just it gets wet all the time. Either when you're engaged in that activity, whether it's fly fishing or hunting or whatever, or you know, law enforcement with gear that comes in after a day of rain or whatever and it just gets sits in a locker and it's and it's wet. So you get you get it. But

But to so one of the beauties too of what we're able to do with dry out is explain what dry out does and they re they view it through the context of their world and the problems we're trying to solve related to moisture and and they see that.

Jeff Holman (46:46)

That makes sense. and w and when you say you back it up with data, because because like at a at a just a technical level, does it make sense that you can dry stuff out better than it's drying out now? Yeah, for sure. That like like there are probably a couple ways to do that. Dry out, of course, it being the better one, right? Now now we know that. But but the data tells that story. And I and I actually was on your website recently and I saw a a little intro video that you have for your company. And when I saw you you actually

say a number up there and you say it it's this many times better and and I saw that and I'm like my candidly my first my first reaction was not everybody knows how percentages work are these the right percentages because these are awfully high percent percentages. It was like thirty four, thirty five hundred times better than I I don't remember what the reference point was. You know, silic I think it was silica silica gel packs or something like that. Did I get that am I in the right range there? Yeah.

Romney Williams (47:46)

Yeah, so so just a level set. We a panel so this is

Jeff Holman (47:52)

Uh-huh.

Romney Williams (47:52)

hasn't launched yet, but a brand partner we're we're working with and they've announced the partnership, but Pelican, world leader in protective hard cases for

Jeff Holman (48:00)

Awesome. Congratulations.

Romney Williams (48:02)

amazing product. Yeah, just phenomenal. So this panel right here, we took a panel b this engineered with dryout. So you just lay it over the gear inside a hard case where you're organizing, you might have different, you know, slots with in the phone for

photo gear, drones, whatever, and then you lay it over the gear and then close up the top and it now is provides moisture management. The the way drought works, it pulls moisture from six inches away out of or off of the gear. And it's like a capillary action. Then it spreads it out across the surface. That's why it has a really high absorption capacity. Mm-hmm. So it pulls it, spreads it out, traps it, and then later the moisture

Is released when you expose this to sunlight or direct heat or forced airflow. And but so anyway, that that's an explanation of how it works. But what we did, Jeff, is with the University of Utah in their lab is a smaller panel than this that's six by twelve inches, going head to head against a silica gel packet, a canister of silica gel, rice. Yeah, it performed 3,400 times, not percent, but times more. It absorbed that much more moisture than.

than a silica gel packet, which really is kind of the incumbent and that's what we're competing.

Jeff Holman (49:15)

Right. Yeah.

Romney Williams (49:16)

Military will throw silica gel packets inside a pelican case and it's almost pointless. It doesn't pull out of a

Jeff Holman (49:23)

No surprising.

Romney Williams (49:37)

Yeah, the

data to prove that. So yeah, so that that was significant is be able to show that. And then what we do whenever we launch a new product with a brand is before in the prototyping process of that finished good, we actually get data of how the performance of that product. So can I give another example? Please so there's a company that is by the time this goes this podcast goes live, they will have launched. So I can say this. But UAG is a brand that sells

mobile access mobile device accessories like phone cases, awesome brand. And pretty That's

Jeff Holman (50:10)

That's this brand.

Romney Williams (50:12)

it. Shout out to UAG. It's not not paid sponsorship. Maybe it should be. great company, great brand. And and they've been attacking this, you know, ruggedization of like protect your phone, protect your gear, your accessories. I have a really rugged case for my AirPods that's, you know, that's made out of it's really cool. It's like military spec drop stuff, like cool stuff.

So they've approached this gear protection from the ruggedization standpoint for drops and all that. Well, now here we came and said we can help you solve another, you know, rescue or excuse me, provide another benefit, which is protecting after moisture damage. And so this product is the phone rescue pouch, which is the twenty twenty six version of the original invention years ago by Elliot the founder that he patented.

So to have it come that far, you know, open it up, put a wet phone, air pods, key fob, whatever, hearing aids in here, keep it in there for a few hours, pulls the moisture out.

Jeff Holman (51:13)

Then you pull the phone out, you you let the bag dry separately and but but but somebody else now is carrying the inventory. Somebody else now is is integrating it in, they're doing the distribution, you guys are now the brand ingredient or the ingredient brand that goes that goes along with UAG.

Romney Williams (51:29)

And here's a here's another unlock. Yeah. Sorry, go you have a question? I have another break.

Jeff Holman (51:32)

No, go ahead, go ahead.

Romney Williams (51:34)

So another breakthrough is we had an interesting aha moment, and we try to be good at pattern recognition, which is hard when everything's new and you're again laying down slats as you're sprinting as fast as you can across this bridge and you're laying down slats. And if there's not a s there aren't two or three slats ahead of you, you make sure your stride is long enough you can at least land, but then what? And a lot of blind spots. And

We had this aha unlock moment, this breakthrough moment, when I was talking with the CEO of an outdoor products brand and they want to get into soft goods and sell whether it's a pouch or, you know, bags, backpacks and all that, engineered with dry out, like with the tech tech pocket in there. Yeah. And it was just kind of it was stagnant. It wasn't moving. They were excited. We were excited. And I finally just called the CEO and I said, Can I have a really open conversation with you?

Said, who on your team is designing this? Like, when's it going to get going? He said, we don't have anybody. I said, Wait, you don't have a designer for these products you want to do with dryout? And he said, No, I we don't. And I said, if we found just a contractor, 1099, third party that can design soft goods like a pack and we can design with your input, would you pay for that? And he said, of course. Yeah, that would be amazing. Because we already had a requirement.

Back to the advice I got from this other ingredient brand, which is we need to be work with our own manufacturers who we trained on how to engineer and construct, you know, soft goods like bags and pouches engineered with dry out to protect our intellectual property and also quality control, quality insurance, make sure it works as intended. But

Jeff Holman (53:16)

Yeah.

Romney Williams (53:16)

this middle piece, like you have a concept, you have production. It was well, how do you now start ideating, designing, prototyping?

And we realized, if we offer that service, design and prototyping, that is a fast much faster path. Talk about, you know, speed to market, but path to revenue for us. And

Jeff Holman (53:42)

Instead of waiting for these big grant these big brands to move it.

Romney Williams (53:45)

Or

a small brand. Right. Either it's a big brand with a three year roadmap. Yeah. And how in the world do you fit in as a Skunk Works project? You don't, even if the CEO is behind it. Right. Or a team a smaller brand, which is nimble and opportunistic, but they're resource constrained. Right. And so my COO, who has and been an absolute game changer for the company and life changer for me, just unbelievable. Just wow. shout out to Tyler. He's amazing. But early on he said

I wonder if at some point we'll have a product designer on our team. And I just said, dude, we gotta keep this as, you know, as asset light, as lean a team as possible. The brands we're working with hopefully will have that. And then I went back to him and said, Tyler, you are a hundred percent right.

Jeff Holman (54:28)

Ha ha ha.

Romney Williams (54:29)

You are a hundred percent right. That's a great service we can provide. And so we've since partnered with a third party that has world class design and relationships with manufacturers in different parts of the world, so that we now it's like

plug and play. And we actually, this is part of the platform we've built. So we call it DDP design, development, and production. Okay. That's why I'm referring to dryout is much more than just a an advanced material. Yeah. Dryout is a platform where of you know embedded technology for active moisture removal, where a brand can be like, yep, we want to do this, this, and this as concepts, a pack, a sleeve, a pouch. In fact, let's do three backpacks of different sizes and have a tech a tech sleeve.

here's our design aesthetic and we could just p just go. It's fast.

Jeff Holman (55:17)

And it sounds like this is just the natural result of what you maybe you didn't envision the the D D P the platform in the form it's in, but but when you when you tell this story, it it seems pretty apparent where some of the pieces are, where they came from, and this tension between controlling your IP versus trying to minimize your own supply chain, you know, stuff. You you well well, you know, the balance is if you want to control your IP more, you have to control more of the supply chain and

And then you become more of a platform and and now you've got this this company that has the offerings that kind of flow out of the platform approach. Like yeah, I I I just love I love hearing because you know, prior to talking about this and the the times we chatted, I I didn't know all these details, but but all of these things kind of come together to say the company is a lot more than just moisture wicking.

Product of some sort, right? This is like the company and the business model is way more intricate. Just just like a a really good invention is always way more intricate in in how it works and how it came together than just simply, this is a you know, a a faster XYZ, right? So the details really are the characters in the story in a way. but I just love I l love hearing about how they come together.

Romney Williams (56:41)

Yeah, and we're not the invention of the light bulb by Edison. We're not the five thousand failures by Dyson before the

Jeff Holman (56:49)

don't shortchange him. I think he says like ten thousand, doesn't he? I don't know.

Romney Williams (56:53)

Remarkable.

Yeah. We're not that. But yeah, it's been being on that journey and just moving forward and taking the blows. Self-inflicted wounds are sometimes the most painful. But just being adaptable and flexible and to learn as we go. And we're still building a lot of it, you know, laying slats on the bridge and widening the bridge. Yeah. And but yeah, we really feel like it's very, very scalable. So you're an IP attorney and you understand that how powerful the moat

Of intellectual property is the second moat that we're building, which I think is really important. Maybe more important. The second moat is the brand. Being known as the brand. Sometimes being first mover in a category works against you, right? you awake sleeping giants, the second or third comer, they do better because they've seen your mistakes or

Jeff Holman (57:44)

Better, faster, cheaper. Yeah. Yep.

Romney Williams (57:46)

yeah. Whereas in this case, our thesis is by coming out with brands like UAG, which is

one of the top in their category, Pelican with 50% market share, both commercial, consumer, but also military and government worldwide, is we're fortunate to partner with brands that are top in their category. And then there's the billboard effect, right? You and I learned about Gore Tex by seeing a Columbia rain jacket, right? A Burton snowboard jacket, North Face pants, right? Solomon's shoes. You get it.

And so we have that opportunity to build that moat so that if someone were to say we can do it ourselves, then it it feels like a me too or or the copycat just feels like a wannabe and you'd be almost embarrassed to have that in your product.

Jeff Holman (58:35)

I love this. I love this Romney. It's bit like like you've painted a picture that I was I was a little curious when we started. You know, I kept thinking I kept thinking, well, it'll be good to catch up with Romney and see where he's at and what's going on. But you've you've now like l painted this legitimate picture that with with kind of the intricacies of what you're doing that i is is really exciting. I I bet you've come I bet your your team has grown, your revenues have probably grown, your

your your board of directors from that meeting, what was what did you say, three and a half years ago?

Romney Williams (59:09)

years ago. Yeah.

Jeff Holman (59:11)

How's what's the trajectory now of of the team and the business?

Romney Williams (59:16)

Yeah, the trajectory is really strong. we we've had liftoff and we've had I there are some confidential apologies in my answer. It's a little bit evasive, but sure. We've had multiple purchase orders from multiple brand partners, some of which are like they're known, right? They're they're they're live. and then others are under NDA and don't want anyone in the world to know until there's a launch date. But it's cool because we're across so many categories. We also have

It's impossible to forecast any opportunity, in my opinion, in the government channel, right? Military

Jeff Holman (59:53)

Yeah.

That's either on on or off, right? Yeah.

Romney Williams (59:56)

It

could be enormous. It could be life changing for company or it could be zero. So

Jeff Holman (1:00:00)

Yeah.

Romney Williams (1:00:01)

my board's been patient about that. And one of our investors actually is a six and a half billion dollar supplier of mission critical gear to the federal government and military. So they know a thing or two about it. And so they've been great at helping us navigate and understand that landscape and have the right perspective. But we're fortunate that we designed a a combat helmet bag that the special

Operations command in the Marine Corps, it's called Marsock. They saw that and said, wait a minute, the helmet can get wet, but the gear on top should not stay wet. The night vision goggles are mounted, the communications gear, there's a laser, there's a light, there's a battery. That's expensive stuff. And the warfighter's life depends on it working and not having any issues related to moisture. And you can't control the weather. Obviously, most people in the military say, like, I was always wet, right? Right. and some is just sweat and condensation because you're in Fort Benning, right, in Georgia. So

We have an opportunity now supplying this combat helmet bag and that happened really fast. And so we've had these validators along the way, they're now turning into purchase orders. And then we another group in the in the military saw that helmet bag and said, Wait a minute, a combat helmet bag, expensive and important to keep that dry. Do you know how much aviation helmets cost? They're three hundred to five hundred thousand dollars. 'Cause it's got like the built-in display and like intense other electronics.

That shouldn't stay wet, whether it's even to you know condensation because you went up and down and elevation, or whatever. So we've designed a helmet bag that's being tested there. So long-winded answer, but we see a lot of opportunity, both commercial and consumer brands, but then defense suppliers. And we're not looking to be a defense, direct supplier to the federal government. We'd rather partner with proven suppliers that are already in their

supplying product, they have distribution, they have credibility, have relationships, and we just help them either make their bags and pouches better. Or if you're a drone manufacturer and you're getting input from the field that your drone's amazing, thank you. But that controller's not waterproof, the goggles aren't waterproof. We keep it in a pelican between uses because it's or training missions because that keeps it safe. But what if we put it in the pelican and there's moisture on it, it starts to, you know, there's rust and croz around the propeller.

Or there's whatever lens fogging on the on the goggles. So we now can design soft goods like packs and pouches and all that for these hard good companies if that makes sense. So it becomes an accessory to what they're doing, which is really cool.

Jeff Holman (1:02:34)

Makes total sense. And I'm I'm thinking about last time I went scuba diving, I b I bought some gear and have you know, have my regulator and my my computer or stuff like that. And I I actually bought I ended up buying like a neoprene water bottle holder to put my computer into, just in between, partly to save partly s you know, for impact issues. But but but as I've gone scuba diving I'm like, these guys will take their air and they'll blow out their regulator trying to get the water out of it and I

And I I'm thinking, yeah, I I might need to I might might need to go see if there are any consumer facing products from a company that might have something that would be be great to throw in there with my with my regulator computer in my bag. So

Romney Williams (1:03:19)

Yeah, and as things play out, w we're hopeful that there'll be multiple options to solve you know, to address this moisture problem in tons of categories through different brands. Right. So you wouldn't come to try out for that solution as a consumer, but you hope that we hope that brands will

Jeff Holman (1:03:35)

Somebody

but somebody will have that, yeah. Yeah. can I ask I I you've been very very gracious with your time here and I I really appreciate that Romney. Can I ask is there any way in which the the journey over the last five years or the last three and a half years from that from that board meeting that that this has changed the way that you're looking at your own leadership position or qualities or or outlook for the company?

Romney Williams (1:03:59)

I was talking to a CEO coach several years ago and he asked me what's my leadership style. And I said, Well, I aspire to be a servant leader. And he said, Great, what does that mean to you? And I said, Well, I wouldn't ask a team member to do something I would be willing to do. And I check ego at the door, I do what's right for the company. Not just when there's you know, not just looking for out for self interest. And so he said, Okay, that's interesting. And then ten minutes later he said, So what are you grappling with? What's keeping you up at night? And I said

there's a member of my leadership team. And by the way, this is, I'm not referencing my current leadership team. I said, this was years ago. I said, there's a member of the team that's just not cutting it. It's not a cultural fit, unwilling to be accountable, but I'm letting them get away with it. And it's easier to not address it because we need that function to be led and the team is pretty good. And and he said, I want to stop you right there. Remember how you said you were a servant leader? And I Well, I try to be. And he said,

Then why are you letting your ego get in the way and the avoidance of contention and a hard conversation? You know you need to let make a change. If you're a servant leader, wouldn't you have the best interest of your company of mine and you wouldn't worry about, you know, hurting his feelings or having a hard conversation? And said, my gosh, yes. And that's probably the right thing for him as well, if it's not a great fit. He's probably miserable. And I'm not doing a good job of of leading and managing. And so that has helped me a lot to

have hard conversations sooner and understanding for an understanding, you know, the lens of this is what's right for the company. And it's hard and I hate having moments where people feel like they've disappointed me or that they're not succeeding. But when's when it's when you have to have a conversation, you have to have a hard conversation. So that's been really important.

Jeff Holman (1:05:52)

I love that. I think a lot of times people say that and it's like, I try to be a giving person. But but the this mentor of yours added a different depth depth to that, right? It's it's not just being a giving person, not just having good intentions. It's it's about putting other things like the company and the employees ahead of you, which means having those hard conversations that

you don't want to have instead of putting your feelings about the conversation itself ahead of the outcome that you need to have. So it's a depth that's not there sometimes when we're talking about, you know, surface level servant leadership.

Romney Williams (1:06:35)

And and I had I had multiple team members on that leadership team who in my one on ones with them, they would say, but I would say basically, how can I help you more? How can I be a better leader? And a couple said, Dude, you hold me to this really high bar and I love it. Like we're doing big things and we're we're literally shooting for the moon. but you let this guy get away with murder.

Jeff Holman (1:06:58)

Yeah.

Romney Williams (1:06:59)

And it's kind of hard, like I'm self driven self motivated, so it's hard I do it anyway.

I gotta admit, that's it's kinda hard. And I just said, my gosh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Lazy leadership on my part.

Jeff Holman (1:07:13)

Well, I that's thank you for sharing that reflection. That's that's that's not hard to tell those stories some sometimes or not not easy to tell those stories sometimes. But I'm really excited for where you're going though. I I'm excited that you shared this shared this journey, you shared the insights. this is this is a cool story and and I'm excited to see where you go. I I imagine five if we were if we meet up five years from now or three years from now, you'd be like, Jeff, guess what we all that stuff I couldn't tell you back then? We we landed it in those government contracts that that we wanted to land that

Who knew if they're gonna come through? We've been doing them now for two years and it sounds like you're sounds you're on a great trajectory with the business.

Romney Williams (1:07:48)

Yeah,

we're we're very we're very hopeful. We're it's it's coming together, still a lot of work to do for sure. Our B Hag, the big Heridaceous goal, right goal, excuse me, the Everest we're trying to climb is is by twenty thirty three for dryout to be in every household in North America and protecting every member of the Armed For the US Armed Forces. So pr pretty big B Hag. And I'm hopeful that we'll you and I look yeah, look back in five years and get a better sense of

If we're on track.

Jeff Holman (1:08:19)

I love it. I love it. I I imagine when we do reconnect, the question I'm gonna now be able to ask you is, Hey, what percent are you at? Where you where are you at on that? Not just now. I'll ask you I'll ask you in a year or I'll ask you next time we chat. I'll be like, How's that percentage increasing? You know? Yeah. Not to definitely Yeah. I know you'll be measuring it. So

Romney Williams (1:08:39)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Holman (1:08:41)

Well Romney, it's it's been really great. Again, thank you for your time. I know you're busy with with a lot of stuff. I I really enjoyed catching up.

and chatting and and I'm I'm so grateful that you're that you're willing to share insights here so that we can share them with our audience and and let other people who are maybe grappling with some of the same issues or similar things hear what you've done and how it worked out for you and and hopefully it'll be helpful for them.

Romney Williams (1:09:05)

Thank you. Yeah, happy to pay it forward. I've had a lot of really smart, kind people who have helped me with advice along the way. If it helps anyone, that that makes me happy.

Jeff Holman (1:09:17)

Fantastic. And and thanks to our audience for joining us again on this week's episode of the Breakout CEO.

Romney Williams (1:09:23)

Thanks, Jeff.

Jeff Holman (1:09:26)

Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you enjoy the show, a rating or a review goes a long way. Our mission is to promote the stories of breakout CEOs in scaling SaaS, e-commerce, and tech companies, to equip peer CEOs with valuable perspectives and confidence. Thanks again for joining us on this episode of the Breakout CEO. I'm Jeff Holman, and I'll see you next time.

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