What Happens When CEOs Optimize for Scale Over Trust

Transcript Summary‍

00:00 – Leaving a Legacy vs. Selling a Company

00:15 – Introducing Amber Duncan & Life After Debt

01:15 – The “Better Way” Moment in Business

02:04 – Entering an Unregulated Industry & Standing Out

03:08 – Rock Bottom: Bankruptcy & Turning Point

06:39 – From Bankruptcy to Business Idea ($60K Risk)

10:22 – The Brutal First 8–9 Months of No Pay

12:37 – Scaling the Business & Industry Evolution

17:42 – Success Without Fulfillment: The Turning Point

20:36 – Creating the “Clarity Call” Concept

24:22 – Storytelling, Trust, and Marketing Shift

29:24 – Impact, Financial Education & Helping Others Rise

‍

Full Transcript (AI generated and might include errors)

Jeff Holman (00:00)
wanted to leave a legacy of what I was doing rather than sell a company. I've got to make this where people almost have to sell me why I should help them. And I think we're so proud. We all have moments where we're too proud to ask for help.

Amber Duncan (00:15)
Welcome back everybody to the breakout CEO podcast. I'm your host, Jeff Holman. I'm really glad to be here with you again today. And I'm glad to have Amber Duncan with me. Amber is ⁓ Amber's company is called life after debt. And when I first saw this, I'm like, what are we going to do with this episode? You know, we don't want to emphasize the, you know, the ⁓ potential that entrepreneurs are going to lose all their money. That's not what this is about. Right. We want to emphasize growing businesses. And as I got in, as I got in Amber's story,

I realized I've seen this story because I've lived a lot of this the way that I think she's lived it. And so I'm excited to talk to you about it. Talk to Amber and share Amber's thoughts with you. Amber, so good to have you. Yeah, it's great to be here. And there's so many people that need to hear these stories about how people like you have gone about building businesses and navigating those pivotal moments because, you know, we're all doing it as we build businesses. I like to say we do the same path just sometimes in a different order.

Jeff Holman (00:55)
Thanks, Steph. It's an honor to be here.

That's

right.

Amber Duncan (01:15)
So it's great to have you on the show. Man, I, and I told you beforehand, I warned you, I don't usually follow a script when I'm doing questions because, you know, it's just not how I communicate with people. as I looked at the, as I looked at the questions that I've got prepared to ask you, I'm going to try not to follow it, but it really made me reflect on how I've built my law firm. And as I understand it, and we confirmed a little beforehand, like

Like at some point you build a business, you get into the industry and you're like, okay, this however runs a business. But then sometimes you have that moment where you say, wait a second, what am I doing? Like there's a better way to do this. Even though everybody else is doing it this way. I think my customers, my clients could be served better if I do it a little different. It sounds like that was your path.

Jeff Holman (02:04)
I just had that aha moment of I went into an industry that was very unregulated at the time. And so it's like dipping your feet, blue ocean strategy, carve the way became one of the biggest players in that industry of helping people with credit card debt. But shortly after there was so many feet in that pool that it started to get a connotation of negativity around it. So I knew right then the only way that the winners and the cream is gonna rise to the top.

is if we shift our messaging and we shift the way in which we're getting in front of people. And so that's exactly what I did with Life After Debt.

Amber Duncan (02:39)
I love it. I've never heard the analogy or it's very illustrative. Too many feet in the pool. I think there's some hot tub experiences that my wife and I have skipped as we've gone off. like, too many feet in that pool. ⁓ That's so funny. Well, so take us back to where this started because you're running a successful business today, but that's not the origins of it, right? You've been doing this for a long time.

Jeff Holman (03:08)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I took you way back, you know, I'm a college dropout, single mom, I filed bankruptcy, my husband and I were both mortgage brokers at the time. And literally, in one day, the mortgage industry collapsed. And so, you know, we had all the savings, we did everything right, but you can't get rid of all the houses and all the nannies and all the cars overnight.

And so after losing everything, I'll never forget I had this pivotal moment, Jeff, where I was standing in front of the bankruptcy attorney. And I know that you can appreciate the story. And he looked at me and he said, I'll see you here again. And I said, you can bet your bottom dollar, you're not going to see me or anybody else I can help stand in front of you. I was so angry. And it's that moment, which I call, you know, in my life, that's a rock bottom moment. Yeah. And to experience that and be able to take it. And within a year,

go from bankrupt to what I call it is go from bankrupt to black card and literally recover and build a multimillion dollar business. It's like, I'll show you, know, the biggest show you ever and help individuals dodge bankruptcy by giving them alternatives. And so that was back in 2008 and I stayed in that business for ⁓ 15 years, long time.

Amber Duncan (04:25)
Wow, why? What was the circumstance where the attorney, I'm an attorney. Like, what is the, what is the circumstance where the attorney thinks to tell somebody who's been through a really bad experience, hey, I'll see you back here. Like, I mean, I don't know that you'd say that to a criminal, even if, even if they're kind of a repeat offender, would you? Maybe it was just a slip up or like, why would they say that?

Jeff Holman (04:31)
I know, that's why I that.

sarcasm,

but it was because of this. Here's exactly what it was. You know, when you're going through a bankruptcy, you can reaffirm certain things if you want to. Or when they look at your big picture to the to the average eye or to this attorney, he can look at everything that we owned all the homes, all the big cars. I just had a baby right before filing bankruptcy, I've got a nice stroller that I'm bringing my child with me to the bankruptcy session. He's looking at me like with jewelry on and everything else and thinking

Well, what is this all about? Exactly. I'll see you here again. Like this is just reckless spending, not knowing that my husband and I were both mortgage brokers. So when the valve turned off and the bank stopped lending our whole life, income collapsed. And it's not like you can just sell off the homes overnight or get rid of everything that you own. It's not that easy.

Amber Duncan (05:44)
So, he's like, you showed up, you've been overspending clearly because you're here. And since you continued to wear the same clothes that you had yesterday, today...

Jeff Holman (05:55)
Yeah, and you have a nice stroller and you drive an infinity and all the things and you want to reaffirm this and so it's kind of sarcasm. But I'm actually gratefully said that at that moment.

Amber Duncan (06:05)
Yeah, sounds like you took it as a challenge. Have you ever run into this guy again?

Jeff Holman (06:08)
I sure did. Yeah.

I wish I wish sometimes, you know, I'm sure he's heard my story. It's been published quite a bit in magazines and stuff. So I'm sure he saw it. And I'm sure he saw literally a year almost a year or two later. I was on the front of the TNB magazine as the comeback kids, my husband and I for that reason. And it shared the whole story. So I'm sure he saw.

Amber Duncan (06:32)
⁓ That's awesome. Well, what was it? How did you go from the bankruptcy to the comeback story? What was the path to get there?

Jeff Holman (06:39)
Yep. So the truth of the matter is we each, myself, my husband, and then the guy who we used to do mortgages with, we each had about $20,000 left on one credit card. Yes, I'm about to share this. And we each pulled this last $20,000. I had 20, my husband pulled it off his credit card, Harry pulled it off his, and literally we never looked back or had to put another dime in. And here's the moral of the story. When you go through a situation like that,

For me, my back was against the wall. I knew we had to make this work. was in the WIC line. I had just had a baby on Friday and was in the office on Monday with my son on my desk talking to banks and creditors and negotiating. Now I'll never forget. I had no experience doing this, but I could negotiate. been a negotiator my whole life. I just didn't realize it. And so getting in front of these banks and collection agencies and building relationships, there's power in numbers. So.

One of us would focus on sales, making the phone ring to drive in customers. And I focused on building our negotiations floor and ended up to where, you know, we at our high, we're settling five to 10 million a month at about 40 % of what people owed.

Amber Duncan (07:50)
Wow. So, what was the switch there? I mean, how did you say to yourself we were doing mortgage lending, brokering, whatever, and then, you know, let's start a different business and let's go into debt reconstruction, right?

Jeff Holman (08:03)
Here's

tagline. Here's my tagline I put on it. We got them in this mess. Let's get them out.

Amber Duncan (08:08)
⁓ so.

Jeff Holman (08:10)
You know, I was guilty of doing the MTA loans like that's what our loan company did. That's really what led the housing market where it landed in 2008 was the MTA loan, right? Banks were over lending, no doc, all the things that they were doing to get people approved. We created that mess. Now it's our turn to get them out.

Amber Duncan (08:28)
Yeah, yeah, know that. And that never hit home to me really until one day I was in my MBA program and I did an executive program. So it was later, a little bit later in my career with other people who were my age, older or younger. And halfway through the program, one of guys says, I don't remember what the circumstance was, but he's like, oh yeah, I went to federal prison for mortgage fraud because I was doing the same thing everybody else was doing. And we were, you know, lending on this and that. And I'm like,

Well, his name was Jeff also. I'm like, Whoa, that's serious stuff. Right. And, and, and, ⁓ and it was part of what the business was at the time and everything turned upside down. And, and ever since then, I'm like, I think twice about the things I sign and I'm an attorney anyways, but I, you know, maybe sometimes attorneys are more casual about what they sign, not, not less or less casual, not more, but so

So you're like, okay, let's start, let's start the company. Was it life after death that you started at that point? Or was it a former version of it?

Jeff Holman (09:30)
No, it was different. know, we started it with Debt Reduction America was our very first name that we launched and that was our retail company. And so we were enrolling individuals into the program. And we had actually at the time when we first launched, we had had a back end servicing company that we had heard about in Nevada, and we were using them for our servicing. But once we figured out, listen, the key to this is learning every aspect of the business, which is probably my favorite thing to do ever and figure it out and do it better.

And so that's when I jumped in and figured out that negotiations piece and customer service is my forte. I love it. I think it's the backbone of every company out there. I think we lose sight of how important it is. And I jumped in and, you know, we built quite an organization there.

Amber Duncan (10:17)
What did that growth path look like? You get in, you take your $60,000, your last $60,000. Yeah. And so how long before you felt like you went from, you know, I'm gonna call it desperate. I don't know if that's the right word. went, you're like, we, we got to make this work. We're going as hard as we can go. What was the trajectory to get to the point where you just said to yourself, okay, we might not be fully out of it, but I can take a breath now.

Jeff Holman (10:22)
Never had to put in another dime.

Yeah, you know, boy, just hearing that, like I took a breath myself, because I think every entrepreneur does not realize how close they are to flipping over into the green and they walk away from all the work that they put in. And that's really my story. I can remember going into my business partner and saying, if I have to watch everyone else get a paycheck another month, I'm going to die here. How close are we to getting profitable? Like throw me a bone.

I'm working my tail off and getting nothing. So we probably didn't get anything for the first eight to nine months. That was brutal.

Amber Duncan (11:19)
Yeah, especially when you've walked out of the bankruptcy attorney's office and he says, I'll see you back here later. And you're like, nine months later, you're like, well, maybe I do need to go back. I haven't made a dollar.

Jeff Holman (11:30)
Yeah. And I think what kept me going was seeing that we are seeing more people enroll. We are seeing and building relationships with banks and creditors. So I knew eventually it would flip, but that's a hard season for any entrepreneur to be in that building phase. I don't think we give it enough attention to say, man, most people quit right before they get over that line to profitability. They really do. And I understand now and that's where I was. But once it flipped over, once we got to profitability,

it was all up and you have to think, I mean, we're putting in new people into the program every single month to the team. We would have 20,000 clients a month. And when you're spinning off and you're talking with people like that are dealing with credit card debt, especially when it was unregulated, which means at first you could take all your fee upfront. Yeah. mean, and so until it switched over to a regulated, which thank God it did, it needed some barriers to take out the bad players. Once it did that,

Amber Duncan (12:08)
Well.

Jeff Holman (12:29)
had to spread fees out based on when you got their settlements, which is exactly how it should be. And the best of the best survived. And we did.

Amber Duncan (12:37)
Yeah. And so it was debt reduction in Yeah. And how long did that last for?

Jeff Holman (12:42)
We invested for a while before we started to outgrow it. And what I mean by that is we saw, you know, there's multiple different ways to market individuals. You can market with different organizations, different looks and feel. I remember I had lunched one to drive marketing called Mrs. Debtfire, and it was all for single moms. And so from a marketing perspective, we had ideas about trying different companies, but we then broke out our servicing companies so that we not only were servicing for our portfolios,

We provided servicing for other retail companies across the country that were doing debt settlement. We were that good.

Amber Duncan (13:17)
I love that. I love that type of strategy because you you see people like just do more of what you're doing. It's like, wait a second, step back. And in fact, I'm trying to think there was, you know, a local restaurant or, or it may as a bakery here and she's telling the story on, on Facebook. And so maybe a smaller level than what you did, but she's like, you know, we opened up a storefront, we're making money, but we realized, wait a second, we can now start not just selling from our store, but we can now provide some of those back end services to other bakeries in town.

We can do cooperative buying. And so all of a sudden they expanded kind of is that I don't know that's vertically or horizontally right now, but they expanded. We'll say they were vertically integrating themselves, but then they took some of those back end services and expanded them horizontally across the market too. And all of a sudden they leveraged, they leveraged what they were doing for themselves anyways to other people and made another income stream. So it sounds like that's what you were doing.

Jeff Holman (13:54)
Yeah

Yes, that's exactly what we were doing. And then we'd split fees based on the affiliate relationship and volume. So it was beautiful. It was a beautiful partnership because we had retail, but we also were providing a high level of service. And keep in mind, the power came in numbers. So even with my relationship with creditors and collection agencies, there's power in numbers. So if you're getting affiliates and you're adding that business into your portfolio, when you're going into Bank of America and you've got 100,000 people with a card, guess what? Your leverage is a lot higher.

Amber Duncan (14:43)
Makes sense. Sounds like that was going great for you then.

Jeff Holman (14:45)
phenomenal. I love it and still to this day I'm so grateful and loved what I was doing. But you know, there comes a time in an entrepreneur's life when you look and you say, this it? Like, is this all? It got so big that I lost the personal touch that I actually craved. And that was what I wish someone would have been for me. When I had filed bankruptcy, I wish they would have come in and said, Hey, I can help you get through this. ⁓ And actually meant it in such a way that they were speaking to me.

Amber Duncan (15:13)
Not the jerk attorney.

Jeff Holman (15:15)
Exactly. And I get lost.

Amber Duncan (15:17)
What was the, is there a moment when you, when you realized this, when you said to yourself, you know what, this isn't the right way. And I'll, I'll let you think about that for a second. Cause I have that moment in my, in my career where I was, I, you know, I started a law practice and I'm doing patents for a bunch of big organizations and, and, and, and then I'm like, I'm going to change how I'm doing stuff. And I kind of went down this path. I don't, just naturally. Right. But there was a moment when I said part of my path was I'm going to go in house and be in house attorney at a, at a VC funded startup. And I, I did that.

But the moment came two weeks into that when I said to myself, holy cow, I think they should fire me because I'm practicing law like I practiced learning from other attorneys and not necessarily how the client really needs me to practice. like not that the mechanics were, were really that different, but just the approach to working with the, you know, the CEO and the CFO and the business is totally different when you

step into that in-house role and until you've done it, there are a lot of attorneys who have been outside counsel in-house and they're like, totally understand. And all of my friends, you know, they do great work, but the ones who have not ever had that experience, it's kind of like never having had a baby. It's like, you know what it's like to have a baby, but you have no idea what it's like until you have your own, right? And that's what it felt like for me. Is that, that's where I, from when when I, when we started the intro here, the conversation.

That's the, that's the similarity that I saw. Is that, is that how your experience went or was it different?

Jeff Holman (16:52)
Yeah, you know, I think when you, especially if this is your first rodeo with being an entrepreneur and you experience success that quickly, right? You forget about, you can lose sight of like, okay, what is Amber really passionate about and what is her purpose versus, yeah, this is great. We built a great thing, but does it hit the buttons for me?

And it wasn't doing it. It wasn't enough because it became almost too big. You know, they say you can build something so big it's a dinosaur and it turns around and eats you and you lose the love of what you do. And I didn't want to lose that because I still loved being in a position to help people at their lowest point because that's what I wanted. But I just felt like I wasn't connecting with people and they were being sold rather than helped. And that's what I wanted to switch.

Amber Duncan (17:42)
What did the business look like? Because I think it sounds like financially, you had every reason to say this is going awesome.

Jeff Holman (17:48)
Yeah, it was great. Like financially, we were killing it. It was like playing Monopoly every month, the profitability of this business. It was insane. Never in a million years did I ever think it could get to that level. But and it was great. We were helping making a difference. But here's to me what happens. I think that one, when you have a partnership, that partnerships are hard. For 15 years to be in partnerships, people change, people grow.

people form their own ideas. People have ideas that maybe is like, you know what, let's try this. But because their area, they're so dead set. You know, one of my business partners, he's all about direct mail. I think it's great, but it doesn't work anymore. When your return rates less than 1 % and you're spending, you know, $50,000, $60,000 a week on direct mail, it's time to pivot. And this is right at the height of social media. And so I think that, you know, partnerships change. I think people grow professionally.

and they just get a different sense of what they want to accomplish and the way they want to approach it. It wasn't that anything was being done wrong. It was great. But I think I just got so fatigued in the way we did business that I wanted something more. I wanted to leave a legacy of what I was doing rather than sell a company to someone. Does that make sense?

Amber Duncan (19:06)
It makes total sense, but I will say, you know, I was going to avoid the word legacy because there's no way you're far enough along in your career, I'll say, to be thinking about legacy yet. So is it a legacy? Is it impact? Is it fulfillment, personal fulfillment in how you do the job? Maybe it's some combination of those.

Jeff Holman (19:27)
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm a very relational person. I think that I love to meet people where they are and really extend help in any way I can. I've always been like that. You know, I have five kids, they're all grown. I have grandkids. You know, at this stage in my life to where I'm 51, I want to give back. I want to give back. And I think that's what it was for me. I reached all the success pillars by any stretch of imagination. I had done everything that I've ever dreamed of doing.

But I just wanted to be known for something more than man, she builds great businesses. She can go into a room and transform a business. Don't get me wrong. I still love to do that. I just love to do it in others business, not my own anymore.

Amber Duncan (20:11)
Well, I want to hear more about that. before I jump to there, sometimes, and I think maybe I personally relate and I've seen this in other places, sometimes when you have entrepreneurs who feel like they're really good at connecting with their customers, that also can be a downside to the business because you can get too invested and overextended or do you find yourself dealing with that balance at all?

Jeff Holman (20:36)
would say I used to without a doubt when I first started, absolutely. They'd call my office the big comfy couch. That's what they called it. And so between employees and customers, you know, I was always very open. And then I learned you have to be very careful and you've got to go in and provide a level of service, but not become BFFs. And so there was a fine line for me that I had to learn to abide by, but I do think that's why, where I coined this whole clarity call concept in which I do now.

through life after death. And that really was the change is that, listen, I created this entire concept of opening up a clarity call that you can book at a time that's convenient for you and you get 15 minutes with me. And in those 15 minutes, I'm going to curate a plan to walk you out of your situation. You're going to hang out feeling completely different than the way you should up for that call. It's 15 minutes and it's free.

Amber Duncan (21:27)
Yeah. And you're not going to tell them that they're a loser on the way out the door.

Jeff Holman (21:32)
No way. That's Fabre MC's job, not mine.

Amber Duncan (21:35)
That's funny. Well, so, so you started seeing the problem differently, it sounds like. And what did that what did that change in the way you operate? Like, did you did you change partners? Did you change, you know, that your intake? Did you change your your target market? What things change when you looked at the problem differently through a legacy lens?

Jeff Holman (21:56)
through a legacy lens, looked at it and said, look, I'm grateful for the partnerships I had. In fact, that's what got me to here. But I also know when it's my time to exit. so I actually, you the company is still going by the way, that company is not Demolet. We're still servicing clients. I just walked away from my role there is running operations and negotiations. And we put somebody in the place so that I could pivot and do something on my own. So the company is,

amazing. It's always done such an incredible job and still does for clients everything that I had hoped for. But I also have been freed and am allowed to go and create this space of doing clarity calls. And not only that, I've created job opportunities for people across the country and trained them on how to do it right from their home to provide clarity because you'd be shocked. mean, most people you can go sit down at dinner and everybody will show up and they could be struggling to the ninth and you ask, how are you doing?

Great. Everything's good. But they're dying to talk to a complete stranger and they will completely unload of everything that they're struggling with. They're one paycheck from being broke. They can't make their minimum credit card bills. Their husband just walked out. Like, it's unbelievable to me. So, you know, in that sense, I love it too. I can spend more time with my kids. I can do it from anywhere in the world. You know, and I can train people to do the same.

Amber Duncan (22:54)
Yeah.

And did you recognize this because of the people you'd been working with and you just had to stop and look at it from a different lens? Does that you know what saying?

Jeff Holman (23:25)
Yeah, you know that yes, but also the bigger thing was is I saw that the mail was getting fatigued. And what I mean by that is the way in which we were marketing this product and the way that every other company was marketing in this industry, it was getting fatigued. There was one message and it was all the same. You know, call us and we'll help you get out of credit card debt and settle for less than what you owe. It was all about people calling into them.

It was all about being sold. And when they would call in, one of the big things I noticed was they were on defense. This is people's finances you're talking about. Do you think they're trusting and gonna call a complete stranger and feel like that they're just gonna unload and tell them how much debt they have and, yeah, go ahead and run a credit report. It's a very sensitive topic. So once I started to identify the breakdown with that, that's when I shifted and I said, wait a minute, I've got to make this where people almost have to sell me why I should help them.

Amber Duncan (24:22)
Yeah, it feels like it's a lot less about data driven decisions and a lot more about behavior mechanics and relationships.

Jeff Holman (24:32)
and circumstances, right? I used to also think that people are bad with their money because they're just bad with money. But that's not always the case. Just like the mortgage industry collapsed in one day and we found ourselves in front of a bankruptcy. So I talked to so many people and people will look down on them or they'll go to seek help. But it's like, yeah, you're just bad with money, you know, from family members and friends. Whereas they just want another voice. They want hope.

Amber Duncan (25:01)
So, as you've taken this new approach, what do see that's changing, either in the relationships or maybe even for yourself? Like, are you feeling differently with this approach?

Jeff Holman (25:14)
Yes, and I'll tell you why. Yeah. The biggest one being, you know, it's so great to be an entrepreneur and build a big organization and have 200 plus employees. Right. But there is something so beautiful about simplifying what you do to where you can still do it. Have very little employees. Do it from the comfort of wherever you want. There's no brick and mortar. And by the way, have everybody in the industry watch you and say, hey, we remember you. We remember what you built. So now just feed us.

And so I actually, once I did that and started the Clarity Call, all the companies that we used to service for said, hey, how can we partner with you? How can we send people to us when you're talking to people that could use our services? How can we compensate you? It shifted the entire dynamic of how I do business and the way in which, you know, at the end of the day, I am life after debt and I have launched that company. But, you know, if I'm being honest with you, you know what I really am? A big Legion company. That's what I am.

Amber Duncan (26:12)
Why else doing this? mean, it makes sense, right? It's it's like better, higher quality lead gen. ⁓ Our businesses, our other business, let's talk about your competitors, maybe not. You you've done this. Why, what do you think's held competitors back from making this change or ⁓ this investment in the way that they do business?

Jeff Holman (26:34)
I can remember, you know, we had one of the top attorneys in this industry, Robbie Brimbaum, amazing attorney out of Miami and he oversees the industry as a whole. And he used to say, listen, don't bother marketing on social media. Don't do it. Like so much regulatory things. Don't put promises up there you can't keep. You can't make these types of claims on social media. And I always thought to myself, wait, but we can be human and nobody's doing it.

And so it's when I shared my own story on social media and I got the response that I did, it all clicked for me. That I don't have to make any claims. In fact, I don't have to say anything about the product. I just have to be Amber and tell my own personal story of I filed bankruptcy and here's why, and here's what happened. And here's what I now do is carve a way for you not to have to do what I did and keep it that simple. And it blew up.

Amber Duncan (27:25)
That sounds like cheating though. Isn't that what, this is what people are saying on LinkedIn. They're like, they're like, stop teaching people like all of the educational things about your industry or about the service you provide. Just tell them your story. And, and most of us never make that switch. We just keep saying, let me tell you about patents. Let me tell you about bankruptcy. Let me tell you about whatever it is. Right.

Jeff Holman (27:47)
rights. People connect with stories, the vulnerability that it takes to actually get very vulnerable. That's where you meet people. That's where you build trust. If you can expose everything about yourself and don't think for a second it was comfortable, it wasn't. At first I was like, there's no way I'm going to do this. I'm not coming clean with everybody. And then when I saw the fruit of it, it's like, that's what people want transparency. That's where trust is built. We're dealing with people's money.

We're dealing with their finances and at a low point in their life. So I want to be as relatable as possible. And so when they hear, listen, Amber's a college dropout. She was a single mom for a while living in government housing. She went from bankrupt to black card in two years. Like, I'll listen.

Amber Duncan (28:31)
Yeah, I love it. I feel like we need to define a new term instead of direct mail marketing or social media. ROAS, right? Return on ad spend. need to, we need to, if you got to be like, don't know what the, ROTS? That's not the right one. Return on trust spend. return on trust, return on vulnerability. Something is out there that's different from ad spend.

Jeff Holman (28:55)
It's cheaper. Listen, per lead, it's so much cheaper too than all the marketing avenues we've ever tried. Who would have ever thought just being completely vulnerable with your own story would yield you more fruit in the long run? When all the fluff goes away, that's going to be the people standing, but it's authenticity.

Amber Duncan (29:13)
Yeah, that makes sense. So what's the impact that you're making? Like when you're talking about, you know, now you're having these clarity calls with people. What are you seeing from this approach?

Jeff Holman (29:24)
Surprisingly, always say financial planners are wasted on the rich and they really are. You know, the truth of the matter is most of the people that need this help and they find themselves in debt, they don't know the first thing even about a high yield savings account, much less investing. They know nothing. And so being able to like just listen to where people are, most of time they're breaking down in tears because they're covered in shame and guilt and letting them know, hey, it's okay, I was there, but here's what I did and here's how I got out of it and you can do it too.

So here's what we're going to do first. I call it flipping your financial script. I'm going to look at everything that you have. You can run a free credit report. And by the way, you have rights. You have rights as a consumer against creditors. You don't have to let them call you and harass you. It's actually a $15,000 fine and an FDCPA violation if you tell them not to call you. And so they start to feel a little bit more powerful. Like, man, I don't have to just take this and man, can do a balance transfer. Most people don't know all this. And so giving them small tools,

And then qualifying them for something that I call the hardship program. And that is determining which company could best suit them to help them settle their debts for pennies on the dollar if that's what they really need. So educating on the lowest common denominator. That's where we have it wrong. We were never given any financial education in schools, colleges. And so most women are the ones paying all the bills and handling all the debt.

And so it's like this beautiful relationship that they call in and get me another female who's been at the bottom. I've been at the top. I don't have any qualifications. I did go back to school and graduate. So I did graduate with my degree, but I don't have any qualifications other than I'm human and I've done this and I've been there. And I'm just wanna give you hope that you'll find your way out too. But you have to take it upon yourself to reach out and ask for help, which is to me, 95 % of the, that's.

Amber Duncan (31:19)
So that's the lift right there.

Jeff Holman (31:22)
Ask for help. None of us do it. And that's the first thing I say when I get in a clarity call. I commend them. I just want you to know, I wanna commend you for booking this clarity call because you're 95 % there and you don't even realize it.

Amber Duncan (31:35)
Yeah. You know, I've dealt with a number of clients over the years and some of them as business owners find themselves in need of this type of help. How do these, how do, how do these principles apply to, know, let's say we've got CEOs listening to this and they're like, man, I've been treading water way too long. It's time for me to like ask for help. Like how do, how do these principles apply or what, are the things that a CEO in that situation should be exploring?

Jeff Holman (32:03)
You know, I never want to feel like as an entrepreneur, I have it all figured out. Even if I'm doing great, I always am seeking and looking at other entrepreneurs who are doing phenomenal things and just having conversations and learning from them because there's always wisdom in what someone else is doing, even if it's not the same industry. But like today's a perfect example. I was visiting a business and just kind of looking around and talking to them. And, you know, I started getting excited about what was possible.

right? And so I was like looking around and I'm making some comments. And within seconds, the girl said, you know, we really need to hire you for business, help us with our business plans and stuff. And I said, I mean, you guys have a lot of potential here. And so I'm happy to sit down. But one of the services that I actually do as an entrepreneur, it's part of giving back called business brainstorms.

And so I do similar to clarity calls, but it's business brainstorms to where I can help individuals who have ideas and concepts and want to bring them to fruition or businesses that are standing up that are just like, you know what, we're stale right now. Now we need some fresh insight, some fresh blood. And I think we're so proud. I'm talking about myself too, as an entrepreneur, we all have moments where we're too proud to ask for help or too proud to get a panel together and say, Hey, here's what I'm doing.

Tell me what you would do or tell me some insight or anything that you can add that you feel like maybe I can pivot. Because I think we lose sight of who our audience is sometimes. We think everyone's just like us, right? And so from a marketing perspective, it's nice to get into a room with other individuals and really request and ask for feedback and for them to be brutally honest without fear of what they're gonna say about what they're seeing. So.

Amber Duncan (33:45)
Maybe that's masterminds and things and coaching work so well, right? Because you've put, force yourself into the hot seat. think they call it a lot of times and you end up sharing stuff that you maybe wouldn't say otherwise. very, very, very interesting. Well, so, so what's next for you? Where, where is this headed? What do you, you're, you're having kind of legacy or impact in your business and your life. Where does this go?

Jeff Holman (33:58)
Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, I was recently nominated to be part of the Women's Initiative for AFPI, which is the America First Policy Institute. It works closely with Trump and the administration. And so that's such an honor to be one of the 12 women chosen because I can say again, and one of the biggest things that I'm an advocate for, I'm a big advocate about women's health and peptides and everything around that. So I'm speaking into that, but I'm also a big advocate of

people deserve a second chance. And so really pushing to get clarity calls is more of something that's offered to everyone as a get out of jail free card. ⁓ And knowing that, you know what, there are individuals who can reach out, it's free, you have access, you can reach out from wherever you are and receive a 15 minute call to kind of help guide or steer you or connect you in where you need to go to get, you know, seek the help that you're looking for in that time, but on a national level. And so I'm all about

showing up in the rooms and being a voice for individuals who find themselves in these financial situations and just feel like they have no voice.

Amber Duncan (35:15)
Yeah, as I'm thinking about it, keep I keep wanting to ask if there's a story about somebody who helped that, you know, is kind of that prototypical success story. But I almost wonder if if you are your own biggest success story. I mean, that's why you're able to do what you do, right? Because you you live that path.

Jeff Holman (35:35)
Yeah, mean, hearing you say that, yeah, I mean, I think in a lot of ways, you know, if you knew my life story and everything that I've experienced as a human, if looking at it, I love the people I've helped and I hear stories all the time, people will find me or come back around and say, you don't remember me, but you settled this $20,000 medical debt for me and I didn't have to pay a penny and I would, I thought it was done. You know, and I don't even remember these stories, but you know,

Probably to your point, you're probably right.

Amber Duncan (36:08)
Well, mean, what better honor, than to be your own, I guess it's, what do they say, know, I'm making up for, I'm probably mixing metaphors and there's, it's called a malaphor, right, when you mix metaphors. it, kind of be your own Mona Lisa, your own greatest work of art and say, you know what, this, yeah, I'm able to do what I'm able to do because I have done what I've done in a way.

Jeff Holman (36:34)
Yeah, and I think they always say you are to people or whatever you're doing is because that's what you want done for you. Right. And so like the way I operate in business and the way I operate within this industry, it's because that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted. And so I think in a lot of ways, all entrepreneurs can probably look at whatever they're doing, whatever they're being, whoever they are, whatever industry and say,

they're in it because that's really what they wanted someone to do for them. And I always wanted someone to fight for me. And now I'm a voice of justice for these individuals in the financial world who don't have a voice.

Amber Duncan (37:15)
That's really interesting. Do you think that you've along this path of becoming to others what you might have wanted for yourself? Do you think you've also kind of fulfilled that need for what you're looking for for yourself?

Jeff Holman (37:30)
I do. I think I recognize that, you know what, I always had it in me to be my own person that could like ⁓ show up for myself. But I think that we all, we don't give ourselves enough credit or we don't think it's possible. you know, I think I've learned over time what I'm capable of and what I'm not capable of. I went to a very strict Christian school growing up where it was very...

legalistic and demeaning and all the things, know, women are secondary and you should be a teacher or a stay at home mom. And so it was like, I never really had a good, ⁓ hey, someone believes in me. But I will say, when I met my husband, I think he was a financial planner at the time. And I think that he saw, he saw it in me. And that's what it takes. It takes someone actually being able to see something stronger in yourself than what you saw in yourself and believe in you.

⁓ that it really started to unwind who I was and what I was about and what I was capable of. And then it was like, once I got started, I was opening gems and Gigi's cupcakes and all kinds of different businesses.

Amber Duncan (38:39)
This story, this just thank you for sharing this with us because it sounds like this is much more than a story about, ⁓ you know, as meaningful as it has been, it's more than a story about I had hard times, I went through bankruptcy, I started a business and I found success and then I leveraged that into something more meaningful, you know, another more meaningful version of success. And that's all fantastic and congratulations for having

been out that path, but I think there's an undertone here of just simply empowerment, self-empowerment and empowering others around you. ⁓ So kudos to you for making kind of digging deeper than the surface. I think that's fantastic.

Jeff Holman (39:24)
Yeah, and you know, it's a gift. mean, I believe God gives us these hard moments and these rock bottom moments because that's where He shows up. That's where it's revealing like, hey, there's more to you than this. And all of our tests, you know, we hear the word test and you've heard the word testimony, which is our story. It's really these tests are a big part of our testimonies. And so if we can pivot them and use them and actually be vulnerable and authentic in our delivery, I think that's how we impact people.

Amber Duncan (39:51)
Yeah, I love that. I appreciate you sharing that. And what I want to one last question for you, though. What would what would Amber today tell Amber, who's just taken out $20,000 on the credit card is four months into building something you don't know that it's only going to take eight or nine months. It might take two years. It takes six months. Like it's unknown. You're building. You're you're pushing your

you know, in a sense, digging yourself out of the past. What would, what would Amber today tell Amber from that time?

Jeff Holman (40:31)
Well, the Amber today, if I could go back, I would tell her money is actually not going to solve the problems that you have in your life. It only intensifies them and money makes you more of what you are. That's what I would tell her. Money makes you more of what you are and not just for myself, but also to remember that with other people. Money makes you more of what you are. And so I never thought what I've accomplished would be possible. In fact, I still can't even believe it. Like I'm very

humbled that this was even possible. at the end of the day, I always say to myself, and even in my company, you know, they'd say, what's your title? Do you want? I said, just call me Amber. Like I never want to lose sight of I'm still the same Amber that had zero. Right. And I think as business owners and entrepreneurs, it's easy to get lost in your identity of who you become in a big organization. And for me, I would remind her.

Doesn't matter what you're about to do here, you're still just amber.

Amber Duncan (41:33)
I love it. I love it. It reminds me of ⁓ when I was in my undergrad studies for engineering, I took some business classes and I went to a speech by a local entrepreneur, ⁓ John Huntsman. If you're from Utah, you've seen his name everywhere. He's built a multi-billion dollar business worth a lot of money. And he started out that conversation by what you said reminded me of this. He said, he said, I'm going to write a book. The book is going to have three words in it.

And that's the entire book. Lucky lucky me. Lucky lucky me. just like looking back at the success that you've achieved and just kind of being grateful for it and saying, not totally certain how I got here, but a lot of hard work and some luck and you know how lucky we are that we navigate these things.

Jeff Holman (42:24)
Yes, I call it favor.

Amber Duncan (42:27)
Favor? What do mean by that?

Jeff Holman (42:30)
Yeah, just mean like it's favor. Like I believe that, you know, God's favor has been upon my life. I've seen him kind of direct and put position and put people. So, there's no doubt like when I think of like when I give credit, I'm very grateful to God that by the grace of God, I'm here. You know, that's what I always say by the grace of God. So, you know, I could have easily been, you know, like literally I could have gone either way in life.

Especially with my upbringing. So that's the thing about entrepreneurs. They always say this. We're either like brilliant and we'll take our skill set and we'll build multimillion dollar companies or we'll end up in the gutter. Like we've got the potential to do both here.

Amber Duncan (43:12)
Well, you'll and you will. It's just how many times can you get out of the gutter, right? That's the real thing. I'm going to have to, I'm going have to reflect on that, that word favor. I haven't used it in that way before, but a lot of times, you know, we find ourselves, I'm like, are you, is this hard work or is this luck? And I think that I think I need to modify that. It's is this, is this hard work or luck or are you favored? like that. I like that a lot.

Jeff Holman (43:15)
You got it.

Amber Duncan (43:40)
Well, Amber, it's been awesome talking with you. I really appreciate you spending some time going through your story, sharing your insights with me and with the audience.

Jeff Holman (43:47)
Yeah, this was great, Jeff. Thanks so much for having me on and just even, you know, hearing a little bit of your story. I think we all have some common threads, you know, which is super cool.

Amber Duncan (43:56)
Definitely, definitely. And I know that some of our audience out there who's listening, thank you for doing that. I know they'll hear this and they'll say, yeah, I can see part of me in that story too. So, well, it's been great. And thank you everybody for joining us on another episode of the Breakout CEO Podcast. Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you enjoy the show, a rating or a review goes a long way.

Our mission is to promote the stories of breakout CEOs in scaling SaaS, e-commerce, and tech companies to equip peer CEOs with valuable perspectives and confidence. Thanks again for joining us on this episode of The Breakout CEO. I'm Jeff Holman, and I'll see you next time.

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