One of the quieter inflection points in a founder-led company arrives when growth begins to work.
Opportunity starts appearing everywhere. Customers ask for adjacent services, partners suggest collaborations, and founders see ideas that feel close enough to the core business that pursuing them seems reasonable.
None of those decisions look dangerous in isolation, in fact, most of them look rational, but over time they accumulate. And eventually the company becomes harder to explain.
Alex Sanfilippo ran into this moment while building PodMatch. What started as a focused platform gradually expanded into multiple initiatives, offerings, and resources around podcasting.
The realization came at a podcasting conference.
Someone asked a simple question: What exactly does Alex do?
The comment landed harder than it might appear. Other people in the room nodded. The confusion wasn’t limited to one person.
Later Alex summarized the situation bluntly: “I had 11 different things I was kind of becoming known for.”
For a CEO, that kind of signal is difficult to ignore.
Most companies do not deliberately set out to become complicated.
Complexity usually arrives through responsiveness.
Early in a company’s life, listening closely to customers is often the right instinct. When someone asks for something useful—and the team has the capacity to build it—the founder says yes.
That dynamic played out at PodMatch as well. Alex was active in the podcasting ecosystem, speaking with hosts, guests, and creators who were constantly offering ideas about what else the platform could support.
Over time, the list of things he was doing grew longer.
As Alex described it, “I just started becoming all things to all people.”
In the early stages of a company, that pattern can even appear to work. The founder builds credibility. The product expands. Customers see someone who is responsive and willing to solve problems.
But the pattern has a cost:
Each additional initiative slightly weakens the clarity of the core offering, and eventually, the company becomes known for many things instead of one.
The problem rarely shows up inside the company first. It shows up in the market.
The market no longer had a clear answer to a basic question: what does this company actually do?
That kind of confusion is rarely a marketing problem and is almost always a strategic one.
Early in a company’s life, exploration is necessary. Founders try different directions to find traction and learn what customers value. But once a company begins gaining momentum, expectations change.
At that stage the market assumes the company has chosen its lane.
Alex recognized the implication immediately. As he put it, “We should be known for something by now.”
That realization reframed the issue entirely.
This was no longer about pursuing opportunity.
Once a company recognizes it has become too complicated, the solution appears obvious:
Focus.
In practice, however, this is exactly where many founders struggle.
The initiatives that create complexity are rarely bad ideas. Many of them generate revenue. Others serve customers in meaningful ways. Some may even feel central to the founder’s identity in the market.
Walking away from those opportunities requires discipline.
Alex described the challenge directly: “It takes a lot of self-discipline to be willing to say no to those things.”
Inside PodMatch, the process of simplification involved consolidating the company’s efforts under a single, clear mission. Instead of operating multiple separate initiatives across the podcasting ecosystem, Alex began refocusing the company around the core product: connecting podcast hosts and guests efficiently.
Some initiatives were removed and others were folded into the primary offering rather than existing as separate brands.
dThe goal was to restore a clear center of gravity for the business.
Another dynamic surfaced in the conversation that many founders will recognize.
Alex described the experience of being what he called a “frontline founder.” In companies like PodMatch, the founder often remains closely connected to the community using the product.
Feedback doesn’t travel through layers of management. It arrives directly.
When customers are frustrated, the founder hears about it. When something isn’t working, the founder feels the pressure first.
That proximity can be exhausting, but it also creates visibility. Leaders who stay close to their customers often see important signals earlier than companies that are more insulated.
The conference moment that triggered PodMatch’s strategic reset is a good example.
The feedback was uncomfortable. But it was accurate.
Strategic complexity eventually shows up operationally as well.
At one stage Alex began noticing that PodMatch had plateaued. The company wasn’t shrinking, but growth had slowed even though the opportunity in the market remained substantial.
The situation forced him to ask a difficult question about his own role.
At one point he even wondered whether the company might need a different kind of CEO—someone with stronger operational experience to take the business to the next stage.
That reflection led him to spend more time with other founders who were further along in their own companies and have conversations with experienced operators gave him the perspective needed to think more clearly about what the company actually required.
For Alex, that founder network became essential.
As he put it simply, “Community is everything.”
Strategic clarity eventually has to translate into operational clarity.
Inside PodMatch, the team settled on a single metric that captures whether the platform is delivering value: the number of interviews successfully completed through the system.
The logic behind the metric is straightforward.
If interviews are being completed, the platform is matching the right people. Hosts are finding guests. Guests are appearing on relevant shows. The ecosystem is functioning.
Many other indicators—growth, retention, revenue—tend to follow when that core activity increases.
Alex summarized the idea this way: “If you can find your one metric… everything else can work off that.”
Choosing a single operational anchor reinforces the broader strategy of simplification and forces the company to prioritize work that improves the outcome that matters most.
The story behind PodMatch is not really about podcasting.
It is about a leadership decision that many scaling CEOs eventually face.
Growth creates opportunity. Opportunity creates complexity. And complexity eventually forces a choice.
The CEO has to decide whether to continue expanding ideas—or to reassert focus around the few activities that truly define the business.
Simplification does not mean shrinking ambition.
It means deciding what the company should actually be known for.
For Alex, that decision became unavoidable the moment he realized the market could no longer clearly describe what his company did.
Once he heard that signal, the path forward was clear.
The company needed focus.
__________
Alex Sanfilippo is the Founder and CEO of PodMatch, a platform that connects podcast hosts and guests for interviews. PodMatch uses technology and algorithmic matching to help podcasters find relevant conversations and schedule interviews efficiently.
He leads the company alongside two co-founders and continues to focus the business on building a community-driven ecosystem around podcast collaboration.
Alex Sanfilippo LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/alexsanfilippo
PodMatch: podmatch.com
__________
Jeff Holman is a CEO advisor, legal strategist, and founder of Intellectual Strategies. With years of experience guiding leaders through complex business and legal challenges, Jeff equips CEOs to scale with confidence by blending legal expertise with strategic foresight. Connect with him on LinkedIn.
Intellectual Strategies provides innovative legal solutions for CEOs and founders through its fractional legal team model. By offering proactive, integrated legal support at predictable costs, the firm helps leaders protect their businesses, manage risk, and focus on growth with confidence.
__________
The Breakout CEO podcast brings you inside the pivotal moments of scaling leaders. Each week, host Jeff Holman spotlights breakout stories of scaling CEOs—showing how resilience, insight, and strategy create pivotal inflection points and lasting growth.
Listen and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform:
__________
Want to be a guest—or know a scaling CEO with a breakout story to share? Apply directly at go.intellectualstrategies.com.
Transcript Summary
Alex Sanfilippo (00:00.024)
We should be known for something by now. think I had 11 different things I was like kind of becoming known for. I think it's probably time to hire a CEO because like I'm not a CEO, I'm a founder. It takes a lot of self-discipline to be willing to say no to those things.
Jeff Holmann (00:12.054)
Welcome back everybody to the breakout CEO podcast. I'm your host Jeff Holman and I'm here with Alex Sanfilippo. Alex, it's so good to have you on the show.
Alex Sanfilippo (00:21.676)
Jeff, I'm really excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me,
Jeff Holmann (00:24.44)
Yeah, of course. And I have to say, you have one of the easy, I don't know if it's the easiest, it seems easy. The background that you've got just makes it very consistent, very easy to identify you. you know, face of course works, but like you just got this kind of iconic look to you. How'd you come up with that?
Alex Sanfilippo (00:44.286)
man. So it wasn't it wasn't fully intentional. First off, I'm a really simple individual. So like what you see is what you get. Like I just have a background with some LEDs hitting it. It's just my my wall and most of my walls my house are empty. I'm borderline minimalist and I'm thankful my wife is actually okay with that. So like this is just kind of my personality. It fits really well. However, everyone sees something different here. When I look at my background behind me, I see purple.
because that's like one of our brand colors. When I look at the computer, I see blue. What color do you see right now?
Jeff Holmann (01:16.608)
It's in between, I think. would call it a little bit warmer blue, maybe, which I guess makes it kind of purple. It's not a light blue. It's more of a warmer blue, if I can say it that way.
Alex Sanfilippo (01:34.196)
So I asked when the first it debuted debuted on a zoom call that I got into there was over 90 people in the zoom call and people were like, well, look at Alex. Someone said this on the screen. They said, well, look at out to the new cool blue background. And someone else goes, it's not a blue background. It's purple. And then this whole like argument started and I was like, I guess this is my life now. Like I'm not going to change it. So
Jeff Holmann (01:52.59)
The gold dress or the what was that thing that was going around?
Alex Sanfilippo (01:56.406)
It was a right there with a whole dress thing. It's similar. It felt like that. And so I'm kind of stuck with it now, but it's okay. This is again, it fits my personality really well. And I've, I've enjoyed having a really simple, just podcasting look.
Jeff Holmann (02:08.524)
Well, I wasn't going to ask this, but this leads me into the next question pretty, pretty well, because now I'm curious. Do you, you're a, you're a simple guy. You're, know, clean, clean cut, clean wall, all that stuff. Is that, is that like a representative of how you run your business?
Alex Sanfilippo (02:26.19)
I like to think so. Sometimes I actually do, will admit, initially I overcomplicate things. Like the first iteration of anything new I'm trying to do, I definitely like overcomplicate it in my mind. And my other two co-founders, one's my wife, the other one's a long time friend of mine, but the three of us, I tell them, I'm like, Hey, just so y'all know, like the first version of something I'm pitching to y'all is going to be overly complicated. But in general, I always do my best to tell them, Hey, just know I'm going to get it more simple. Encourage me to do that. And we do our best just to
to literally just keep everything simple. so for, I think that the way that I live my personal life is reflected in the business and vice versa. So I try to keep the complexity out of it. And I've gone a little bit extreme, I will admit. Like the color t-shirt I'm wearing is kind of like a, I don't know, like an off gray type color, like a very light gray. This is the same color every single t-shirt I own is. I think I have 15 of them. They all have different logos on them, but they're all, I think there's 15 of them I had made. And so I'm very simple. It's funny, like if you,
go into my closet, be like, this is all you own. It's like, yeah, this just, just kind of, kind of keep it simple and same with business. Like I don't have a whole lot of things that I do. Like I run my business and I don't have like all the little side hustles and all the little add ons and stuff like that. And just, I enjoy life that way. And I enjoy business that way and can wrap my head around it really well. So it's kind of been the flow I've maintained all the way through.
Jeff Holmann (03:44.334)
Well, I think you articulated something that a lot of business owners go through, right? Cause you'll launch the business and you're like, I could do this, I could do this. In fact, many business owners don't have the restraint you do. And they in fact, try to add on all those other things on top of their business, right? And that becomes a kind of a mess in a lot of different ways. Some of them I've seen and some of them I tried to help clean up before, but that becomes a mess a different way. It takes a lot of work though, to simplify a business to the point where it's easy.
Right. And I look at that from a, from my background in law and I've had clients say, wait a second, this is all you did. You charged me how much and this is what you did. And I say, you don't know the path it took to get this simple. Who, what was it? Was it Mark Twain? What was his saying? You know, if you, if you want me to, gosh, I can't remember it. Something about writing a long letter. If you want to write a short letter, give me 10 hours or something.
Alex Sanfilippo (04:38.99)
I think it was, if you want me to talk for four hours, I can prep it in five minutes. If you me to talk for five minutes, I need four hours to prep. Something along those. And the idea is like, it's, yeah, it's, I like what Leonardo Da Vinci says, it's this, simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication. And I have seen that through and through my business and my life, but I don't want to sound like I've always gotten it right. There was a time, Jeff, where I was actually, I was at a podcasting conference, because again, that's all I do, right?
I was there and somebody, it was like kind of a Q and a thing. And someone's like, Hey Alex, I have just one question. Like, I don't know what you do. You seem to do so much. really confused. I watched more than half the room nod when she said that. And I was like, no. Like even though everything I was doing is it wasn't podcasting. had, I think I had 11 different things. was like kind of becoming known for like courses, this and everything had its own name, its own brand had books and kind like all these different things that again had their own name. And that's when I realized that like, I've, I've gone from wanting to do something really simple.
to now over complicating it, mudding the water because I just started adding so many things. Now I still do most of those things. Some of them I cut out completely, but I just now do them all under my company, PodMatch. We do it all under that umbrella, all inside of it, so there's no confusion. It's all just part of the service that we offer. So I don't wanna try to make it sound like I've always gotten this right. Like I've had to learn this. And as I've learned it in business, as I've learned in my personal life, I let one influence the other along the way.
Jeff Holmann (06:02.035)
That makes sense. How long ago was that when they asked that question of you?
Alex Sanfilippo (06:05.208)
That was 2022 and my goal is within one year to fix that. I'm almost there. And so it's still been, it's been multiple years now, many years, but I'm still working toward simplifying all the time. And I'm getting real close to where I feel like I'm kind of like at the golden standard of it, but I'm, I'm a work in progress like all of us.
Jeff Holmann (06:22.648)
Well, and when did when did you start pod match relative to that?
Alex Sanfilippo (06:26.392)
Pond match launched June 15th, 2020 was our first day.
Jeff Holmann (06:30.38)
Okay, so it'd been there, you've been running your business for a couple years and someone said to you, wait, what is it you do? Yeah, right. I have a business. Of course I have other businesses too, but I have this business and you like, that kind of hits you and you're like, wait a second.
Alex Sanfilippo (06:48.11)
Right. Yeah. It's, it's, the interesting thing is it's not like I set out to, to confuse or to complicate. And I wasn't trying to like become famous. Just when someone's talks to you and they're like, Alex, you should do this. You're really good at it. And then you're like, wait, I am good at that. I'll do that. Right. And just started responding to everything. And especially when you first start a business, you need to talk to the people that you're serving, but you also have to have some, some discernment, some wisdom.
to understand like what to actually act upon. And I basically listened to every bit of feedback and just implemented everything that I possibly could. I was doing this pod match thing full time within six months of starting it. And so for me, I was like, I've got some capacity. I've got some time with the company small. And so I just started becoming all things to all people as long as it was in podcasting. But now I've realized like, I don't want to be that. I want to be this one person that does this one thing for people in podcasting. I know people who do the rest, but it's not me anymore. And, but at first I felt that temptation of just being like, yeah, I'll do that for you. Yep.
I'll do that too. And it takes a lot of self-discipline to be willing to say no to those things.
Jeff Holmann (07:49.39)
Well, a lot of early stage founders or early founders, you don't know if you've nailed your business model yet. So there is this exploration of what feels like tangential services or products, and maybe we should add this and we'll then we'll maybe that's where we'll actually build our, businesses around the other, the next product. So there's that feature creep, there's the exploration, there's, you know, kind of perpetual pivot mode. I don't know any of those, but you had, you had co-founders when you started this, right?
Alex Sanfilippo (08:16.77)
Yeah, still do. Yep, the same three of us. Yep.
Jeff Holmann (08:19.0)
How did your co-founders feel? Would they have said the same thing? Well, Alex, we've been meaning to tell you you're a little scattered in this. Or was it just a function of the business? That's how it was operating and growing.
Alex Sanfilippo (08:32.363)
Yeah, it was, as you mentioned, early stage. Like you don't really know what's going to stick. We were very much so in that boat between the three of us. And so I knew a lot about podcasting when we started. My wife knew a lot about operations, but not a lot about podcasting. And my other co-founder, who's the technical guy, builds out the software and stuff like that. He knows literally nothing about podcasting. Now he does, but he didn't at that point. And so they were kind I was like, Hey, we just got to see what we can make work. And the thing is the company was, it was growing and it did, it did actually help for a time.
until we hit the point where like we kind of found our product market fit, right? Like we found that lane that we should be in, but I was all over the place. And so at that point it was first an internal commitment to them saying, Hey y'all, I'm going to, I'm going to streamline what I do. I'm to narrow it in. I'm going to stop a bunch of things and we're going to look at what's profitable, what's bringing in business, what's actually serving people at the highest level. And if it's not doing those things, I'm going to start cutting it and removing it. And so was one those things where they didn't bring it up. actually brought up to them first.
after hearing someone say, I'm confused about what you do. That was really like the thing that tipped me over the edge to be like, uh-oh, it's time to hone in because we should be known for something by now, not just being a guy who can handle anything in the podcasting space.
Jeff Holmann (09:39.82)
Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. I think, I think it's a familiar trajectory. Let's pause there though, because I don't know what we've told people what pod match is. I'm actually a user of pod match. I've been on it for, think over a year now. I don't know. I just started my podcasting journey as a guest and I'm like, I got to be on podcasts. And I did a bunch of that. And I'm like, where's the, how do you find hosts to host you? there's this awesome platform called pod match. Some guy named Alex has created it and
It's what I started using to find hosts that wanted guests that were speaking about the topics that I speak about. And then as I actually signed up for, I think you have a combined plan host and guest and I signed up for both. I'll let you explain what it is in a minute, but I signed up for both because I thought, I might start my own podcast later and we'll see what happens. in fact, I did. But tell the audience what Pod Match is and kind of the basics of what it does for the community.
Because I think it really is, have to, sorry, I have to add this. I think it really is not just a platform. I think what you're building is as much a community as it is a platform.
Alex Sanfilippo (10:46.86)
Yeah, thank you for that, Jeff. I really appreciate it. Thanks for being part of pod match for everyone who's like, okay, what is this pod match thing that the website is pod match.com and it's a service that connects podcasts, guests and hosts for interviews. use an algorithm, we use AI, the stuff that we've actually built to basically connect the right people together. So like Jeff and I matched, should say the breakout CEO and Alex Sanfilebo matched on pod match, given my expertise and what Jeff says, Hey, this is what the breakout CEO is looking for.
Right? So we're able to make that connection in the system. The whole idea is to streamline that process. And for lack better term, listen, I've been married too long to be on a dating app, but for lack better term, works very similar to a dating app. But instead of kind of move for dates, it connects them for podcast interviews and on the platform, you can message back and forth. You can schedule, you never have to exchange an email. If you don't want to, you can handle it all literally right there. And that was the idea. Let's, let's remove the friction involved and bring the right people together and help them to get to the actual recording studio, whether it be in person or virtual faster so that ultimately listeners can be served at a
at a higher level without all the, again, all the friction that's involved behind the scenes that most people don't see. And so that's, that's the big problem that we serve in the podcasting industry. And that's been my sole focus for years now. And I've gotten better and better making that my only focus, but thanks for opportunity to talk about that, Jeff. appreciate it.
Jeff Holmann (11:55.65)
Well, it's a fantastic tool. Those of people who are listening to this thinking, I'd like to be a guest, go check out Podmatch, create an account and sign up. It's easy and it's a great platform. It really is. I don't just say that because you're sitting here with me on my show. It's a great platform. I've been using it long before I got to know you. Although I am very glad to get to know you through the platform and LinkedIn and other places.
Alex Sanfilippo (12:17.826)
Yeah, thank you that man. Means a ton. I appreciate you.
Jeff Holmann (12:20.066)
Yeah. Yeah. No worries. I wanted to touch on, you, if you don't mind, a few weeks ago, it was either on Facebook or on LinkedIn. I noticed that you said something you were kind of pulling out the, the, what do we call it? Vulnerability, right? That's what, that's what we call it these days. And you said, man, I don't know what's going on. I'm going to paraphrase. I'm going to get it wrong. Ask my wife if I know how to paraphrase correctly and she'll tell you I don't. So, but I'm going to do my version of paraphrasing. And, and that was something like, man,
I'm building this platform, but some days I just, can't please everybody. got people that are complaining and people that are not happy or, you know, I don't know if it was cause you removed a feature or you turn on a feature or just somebody wasn't doing exactly what they expected to do. you're like, you know, we're trying and we're going at it. You remember that post?
Alex Sanfilippo (13:10.638)
I do. Yeah, those are hard. Those are hard to forget. Yeah, great job paraphrasing it. Me and your wife can can talk about this. Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, I think vulnerability is really important. As matter of fact, you had you had a recent episode of your show that I listened to the breakout CEO you had Zach Barney on. I remember the date it was aired on February 5th, 2026. And really good episode, by the way, encourage everyone to listen to it.
Jeff Holmann (13:18.414)
Tell them what I missed.
Alex Sanfilippo (13:38.924)
something that Zach said was that you just need to admit when you're struggling, having a struggle or something you're going through, be open about it. And this was me being that, like I just decided like, hey, I'm gonna use my social media platforms for work. Like I really only use them for work, but I'm also gonna be really honest about that stuff on there. And when I posted this, it was actually like this, it's this weird week that happens every year. It's near the end of January.
And it's when people who at the beginning of year were really excited to start a new goal or resolution, whatever you want to call it. And this is the time now where they've decided, they're admitting failure. They feel like they decided they're going to quit. And there's this.
Jeff Holmann (14:18.464)
They quit the gym the week before and now they're quitting podcasting.
Alex Sanfilippo (14:22.51)
Yeah. And so what happens is, uh, because we're very community driven within pod match. And thank you for saying that earlier, by the way, like really a community is, is, is key to what we're doing these days. And so like, for me, I'm available. Like I check the email, my wife checks email, Jesse, our other co-founder, like we're the ones in the email. don't use any AI tools or like chat bots or anything like that. Like it's actually us. And every year, that time of year, the system does automatically send some notifications. So it might be like, Hey, Jeff notice, get it logged in a couple in a week or something like that.
How's it going so far? And because that's open for people to respond, we're the first person typically to tell this, to remind this person that, you failed. Why? Right. And we don't say that, but that's how they articulate. So they respond very, like very rude, very like, I mean, I think maybe they just don't realize that humans going to see it. Cause some of the stuff people say, I'm like, wow, like would you, would you say that in person? Like that is awful. Like how could you say it? Right. So people are like, Oh, I failed because you all are terrible. Right. And it's like, okay, well that.
can't really be the reason, but the people use way worse words than that. I really, I posted that just out of a place of like, man, I'm worn out. It was like a Monday morning and that's always like the worst of it happens Monday morning. And so it was just like a bunch of emails in a row where I'm like, man, does anyone even like PodMatch? You know, like, and I go look, I'm like, there's like hundred thousand people using it and there's 10 here that are angry. Like it's like, okay, I think we're okay. But I think, I think that it takes a big commitment.
to be that what I call the frontline founder, being the person at the front of the pack, being willing to take on some of that pressure, right? Of like, hey, you're to call my baby ugly, go ahead, I'm ready. Like I'm bracing myself. And I was having one those weeks where I like, man, this is, I need to like remind myself and remind others like this is actually hard work. Like I like to make it look like it's all fun and games because usually it is, but sometimes like, man, you got to put on your big boy pants and just go for it. And that was one of those weeks for sure.
Jeff Holmann (16:14.016)
I love that phrase, frontline founder. I don't think I've heard it before, or if I have, I didn't remember it. But that really is true. mean, I think you're referring a little bit to battleground scenarios, or at least the chaos that would be representative of being out on the battlefield, right? Like you're in the middle of it trying to advance when what's in front of you might be
might be unknown at best and hostile, you know, in some situations. So there's something to be said about that frontline founder phrasing and mentality. Have you used that often?
Alex Sanfilippo (16:55.624)
I had never heard it before. And the first time I ever said it was for that post because I was having trouble like articulating like, what am I? Like, why, why is this different for me than, and I'm not talking about other companies in the space and listeners, all kinds of ways to build your business, but most of the businesses in podcasting, there's no, there's no way you would ever have a conversation with a founder or anyone above like just a regular support individual who literally has no connection to like the actual heartbeat of the business. Right. So for them, they're like, I'll just block you, know, like you don't, you can cuss me out. I'll just block it. don't care. You know, like,
I don't get paid enough for this. And so like, and so I was like, what is this? I'm like, Oh, basically like I'm running this when I'm actually like, I'm at the front line. I'm the first person to get shot at, know, like it kind of comes right at me. And so I had never heard it before either. I don't know if it was the right term and maybe it has some different meaning behind it that I'm not aware of, but to me it's, it's how I felt at the very least and still to this day feel it's actually how I want to run my business. Like, yes, I had a tough week, but I made it very clear in that post. I'm not changing anything. I'm just saying this in case you're doing it this way as well.
And so I want that to be known. Like if you're going to build a community around a business as a founder, I think you to be really heavily involved with that. Maybe not the exact frontline like I am. not saying, I think that maybe what I'm doing is a little extreme, but you've got it in some way, and form, be involved in it. Cause the community is going to follow what's happening from the top down.
Jeff Holmann (18:11.406)
And before the show, we were talking a little bit about fear. People, if the audience hears our little icebreaker question conversation before this, they'll hear what you said about that. But I think for those who haven't heard it, it's you mentioned that having courage is the ability to step into the unknown, even though your mind is telling you, oh, wait, wait, I don't know what this is, I don't know where it's going, you know, what's gonna happen. And so it sounds to me like you've got a really good handle on approaching.
you know, those tough moments, knowing that they're going to be there, even though, and that they'll pass too, I think, but knowing they're going to be there, even though you don't know exactly when they're going to pop up or how they're going to show up.
Alex Sanfilippo (18:51.818)
Absolutely. I think for me that all ties back to my personal core values, which informed the company's core values. Well, I say mine, like my personal core values, but the companies are between me, Alicia and Jesse, the three co-founders. But like we, one of our big ones that we have on the website, we list areas like human to human, like we're always new business. It's human to human. And for me personally, like it kind of ties to my personal core value of what I just say loving first. And so I always remind myself like, Hey, I love people for who they are, not for what they do. And our job as a company is to love people who are hurting.
And so I remind myself of that. like, I know that I'm using the word love and people are like, aren't you like in podcasting? Like, yes, but then the day we're in the human connection business, like that's what we do. Right. And so like, there's gotta be some sense of love and passion involved. can't just be all transaction and dollars. If it is, you're never going to build a community around it the very least. And it's never going have a true heartbeat that so many people these days look for when they want to work with a company. And so that's, again, this is the cost of designing what we have. Right. Like some of you were like, man, you all like
You're coming to us so well, like how can I build a company that's successful? like, you got to want to. And it's not, sometimes I feel like we don't get paid enough, you know, like, that's okay. But that's just the approach we decided to take with this thing. And I'll be real 95 % of time, it's a blessing. It's a blast to be part of. And I'm really just grateful to be here.
Jeff Holmann (20:05.9)
Yeah, I love it. Have you read Unreasonable Hospitality by Chance?
Alex Sanfilippo (20:09.57)
Man, that's funny you said that is my next book that's queued up. Somebody just told me about this after that post. And so I've not read it, but it's my next one I've queued up. hearing it from you makes me really excited to open it up.
Jeff Holmann (20:21.134)
Yeah, I just read it and I shared it with my with my team here at the law firm. I mean, who's in a law firm, you're like, unreasoned, hospital hospitality, you're not a hospitality business. But we all are we're and what you're saying reminded me of that, that we're all in the it's that human to human experience. What's the emotional response that you create for other people? And how do you do that in a way not every single interaction has to be that way. But if you have a slice, even a sliver of, of what you do with your community with your people with your team, and you make it
unreasonably great, you know, is the concept. And, and you create these phenomenal experiences. You know, it's good, you're going to stand out. And in the case of, of the author of that book, you know, will Gidara, you're, gonna, you're gonna develop a three, what is it a three star Michelin restaurant and top of the list in, you know, world class restaurants. So nice, I'm sure you'll find out lots of applications for that and you'll be great at
implementing it in a cool way.
Alex Sanfilippo (21:22.306)
Yeah, I'm excited about that, man. That's cool.
Jeff Holmann (21:23.854)
Well, I'd like to, I'd like to ask you, because I haven't seen, you know, I've watched for the last years. I've, I've been a, you know, a member of your community. I've watched what's going on. I see things happening and changing and you're developing things and, and you've got a lot going on for the community. But I'd love to know for my audience who is, you know, they're like you, they're building a business. Everybody sees the outside world and they get to see when things are going right. Every once in a while, they get a glimpse into the.
inside world. But a lot of people building businesses think, I'm just the only one going through this. I've got nobody to turn to. You know, I could be I could be vulnerable a little bit maybe out on LinkedIn or whatever. But but really, when something really goes wrong, who do I tell I don't want to tell my investors because they're going to be like, you're incompetent. I don't want to my employees because they're going to be like, why am I working for you? I don't want to tell my you know, there's so many people you you can think
of a whole list of people you don't want to tell. And so they end up just kind of sitting on it. And not that we want to dwell on negative things by any means, but what is there a moment in your business where you kind of have hit those plateaus or those obstacles and you've said, I kind of figure out, you know, not just how to deal with the, the implications of what's going on, but how do I change my perspective or, where do I go to get a little bit different insight?
and really break through this moment and find growth out of what otherwise feels like, you know, maybe a plateau or maybe more, you know, maybe a bigger obstacle than that. Just a quick note about our guests. I host the Breakout CEO podcast to share behind the scenes insights from scaling businesses. As an attorney, I see the real challenges leaders face long before success becomes public. But client stories have to stay confidential.
So we invite guest CEOs to share their own moments of struggle and success. I'm so grateful to our guests and my team at Intellectual Strategies for making this show possible. Now, let's get back to the show.
Alex Sanfilippo (23:34.218)
for me, community is everything. I know I've already said that few times, but like community for yourself as a founder, as a CEO, like it really matters. And I've definitely hit this moment. can remember, I think I was probably about three years into the business and I was like, I feel like I was stuck. okay, like we've grown and we kind of, did plateau as a business. I was like, I don't really, I'm now beyond my ability to be a founder. And it was interesting because I was like, I think it's probably time to hire a CEO because like I'm not a CEO, I'm a founder and there's a, there's a big difference, right? Like there's, then I just don't have the
Jeff Holmann (24:02.126)
You plateaued at that but like were you seeing the numbers just kind of stall at that point or was it is that what it was?
Alex Sanfilippo (24:08.654)
It was, it was a few things. One, numbers plateaued. So like not just like the revenue the company was making, but also like from the people using the platform, like everything was kind of, it wasn't shrinking, but it was just kind of staying flat. But we knew that we had not reached like market maturity by any means. Like we knew there was plenty of room to grow. And then when we were looking at the development pipeline and we were looking at how we were actually maintaining all the operations of the business, like looking at all those things, I'm like, okay, we're kind of.
flatline from a business perspective, we're not sure what to work on. And from an operations standpoint, we've kind of maxed out all the tools we have. And it was like that moment where I was like, well, something has to change, right? And for me, I didn't mean to step in as the acting CEO or anything like that. None of us have an ego in this business. So me, Alicia and Jesse, none of us have, they're never at any point where people are like, well, I want to be the CEO when it comes to that point. We just never had that. I just kind of stepped into that without really meaning to. And it was that moment where I really
Jeff Holmann (25:05.41)
I have a CEO before that was it just literally just co founders and we'll just we'll we'll just build this together everybody pitch in where whatever hat needs to be worn that day. And you for three years you operated just co founders and
Alex Sanfilippo (25:17.528)
Yeah. yeah. Okay. And, and yeah, so we're bootstrapped. So it was the three of us that started. We legally got buttoned up. Jeff, think I should say that here in front of your presence that the day we started, was, I won't even forget it. It was a March 10th, 2020. And, I called up, my, had like a side hustle business I had a lawyer for anyway. And so like, I called that person. I'm like, Hey, I'm changing everything. Need some documentation for the three of us to sign.
We signed, we made it all legal. So we're good. Oh yeah. We just decided like, Hey, we're going to put $5,000 in this account and hit the ground running. And, uh, and if we run out of that money, we'll figure out what to do with it. And thankfully that money never ran out. And I'm, super grateful for that. But like back to that present day, I was sharing about, like, we kind of hit that point. And at that point I was like, Hey, I think that, I think we need to talk to some other people. Like, let's just start with that. Like, who do we talk to? And so for me, I started actively seeking my own community. So like not the pod match me with my own community.
among some other founders. And there's like plenty of masterminds out there to help with this stuff. There's also like localized different groups and stuff like that in most major cities at this point. But for me, was like, well, who's, who's someone who runs a business the way I want to. And so I just started seeking those individuals out and that happened to meet somebody in Jackson, Florida, who is, he'd been doing it, I think like 15 years longer than me at a very successful brand. He ran it the way I liked it, liked to be running. I just tried to seek out to be a friend of this guy. So I did my best to help him any chance I got.
Eventually built out a friendship and he introduced me to many other people that are much further along than me but I started just getting around other people and Talking and sharing very transparently these individuals just like hey, here's where I'm at Here's what I'm struggling with and the biggest thing to open my eyes actually Jeff to realizing that like I could go further was the fact that many these individuals said ooh Yeah, that's a tough problem. I was like wait, you're saying that's a tough problem I'm like, hold on, you know, like that actually gave me a lot of confidence because I'm like, oh, I'm not just stupid, know, like
This way more qualified person than me says, oh, wow, that's actually a pretty, that's a tough problem to overcome. And it kind of gave me this freedom to be like, well, then I can still be creative. I can still come up with solutions. If someone as far along as this person says, that's tough, like in many ways that boost weirdly enough was almost all I needed. And of course I got some very pointed wisdom on how to do things. And so having that tight knit community myself has been a game changer for me over the years.
Jeff Holmann (27:33.358)
That almost seems counterintuitive. When you go to somebody smart and you take them a problem, you're like, I'm going to get an answer here. And they say, you know, Alex, I'm not sure. That's tough. think some people would react to that and be like, crap, I'm in trouble. Like, I came here to get an answer. I'm not getting an answer. I'm just going to shut this thing down. I think it would frustrate them. But you took it and you said, this is encouraging.
I came to a smart person, I got a hard problem, they don't know how to solve it either. Was it kind of like, if they don't know how to solve it, maybe we are on the same level. Maybe I'm coming up against the things that they're coming up against and this is a tough problem for anybody.
Alex Sanfilippo (28:20.75)
I think that yes, it might be a tough problem for anybody. But the reality is I think that these individuals took the time to really invest in me and get to know me. And I think that they just knew that if I said it, they're like, if I say to Alex, he'll go figure it out type of thing. And I think it was a little bit of that of like just playing to my own strengths. And most of the time these individuals like would push me in the right direction or help me a little bit, but it was never, it's never been a handout type of relationship, which is it's good because they know me. If you kind of hand it out to me, like I probably won't even do it. Right. Like it's harder for me to implement. If you're more like,
Here's an idea, Alex, go run with that. I'm much better in, much more fulfilled and much better in that scenario. So think these individuals just kind of knew who I was. And I meant, do want to clarify, none of them like left me hanging. Like that's a tough problem. They kind of then would kind of be like, well, here's a few scenarios here. But for me, it's funny, I still go back. All I can really hear is the fact they said that was a tough problem. I'm like, I can, I can do it. I know I can now. Right. So, and it was definitely not like I'm at their level. I don't know if I'll ever arrive because they're also getting better and better and climbing. Right. So,
Jeff Holmann (29:19.054)
It definitely got you energized. You're like, yeah, I can do this.
Alex Sanfilippo (29:22.702)
100%, that's a good way to say it. That's exactly what it did for me.
Jeff Holmann (29:25.74)
I love that. want to, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you built your network. Cause I think for some people it doesn't come naturally at all. You know, they're like, I need it. Everybody hears it. I need mentors. And then they're like 30 years later, like maybe I should have gotten some mentors somewhere along the way. Like, but you seem like an outgoing guy. Was this an easy thing for you to just go and make friends, just go and find mentors? Was it like one month to the next? You're like, now I got this network of mentors and I'm just going to
you know, go to them with problems and yeah, I'm sure none of them left you hanging, but they work through and present the problems, have conversations, productive conversations and you know, and now you benefit, you know, forever for that from these great relationships. Is that how it worked?
Alex Sanfilippo (30:10.066)
I wish no. I'd even say my main mentor, I'd say it took me two years to like really break to like kind of break through with the guy to even get like any sort of reaction from him. And now that was being annoying knocking on his door every day or anything like that. It was just like, you can cut, don't know. I've got to, try to have a little bit of social intelligence to know when like, okay, there's not really any like too soon. You know, let me back up, slow down. We just met type of scenario, right?
But so for me for years, I'd say, although I'm outgoing, I do have like a big personality. And so for some people they're like, Oh dude, calm down, slow down. Right. And so, I'm aware of that. I've learned to tone that down a little bit over the years. Um, but I really did struggle. I'm like, don't know how anyone finds a mentor finds a coach. It was actually, uh, one of Michael Hyatt's books. Um, and I'm blanking what it's called, but it might've been even mentor or mentorship might've been the name of the book. And it was kind of his philosophy is again, Michael Hyatt, someone I've been following for years. So he's kind of been like a.
a virtual digital mentor for me for a long time. And when I read that, just realized like that where it really comes into play is you can't just show up to someone and be like, will you be my mentor? Will you help me? It starts with you leading with some form of value. And so like the main individual who I would consider to be like my main mentor, it was something I wasn't even aware of. Like we're in each other's ecosystems a little bit, but it turns out I interviewed the person he considers to be his main mentor. I had no idea they were connected, had no idea they knew each other.
And I get a text message from the guy. I want mentoring me one day. And he's like, Hey, heard your conversation with DHH. Can I call you? And I was like, yes, absolutely. So we got on a call and he's like, man, I listened to every single, I don't know if you know who DHH is, but I mean, David Hannah Meyer Hanson, but if you like go to Google and type in DHH, he's who shows up, which I think is kind of a big deal. Um, so, but the people that follow DHH, they, they don't like follow him a little bit. Like if he posts something on the internet,
in a website that only one person ever visited. They all find it. Like it's just kind of how they are. And so, but he told me, the guy's name is Tom and Tom goes, Alex, he goes, I have listened to every single piece of content that this guy's ever put out. Everyone that's ever interviewed him. goes, I have never heard anyone do it like you did. And so we, that was actually the moment that we kind of struck up this like more mutual, relationship where he felt like I added value to him. Cause he's like, I've been wondering some of those questions and no one's ever like, I've never had the chance to ask him those questions. And like now you have, and you,
Alex Sanfilippo (32:30.434)
voiced them really well. So we were able to build that out. And so for me, like finding mentors took a lot of patience and me realizing like, I've got to put some skin in the game here to make it happen. That one was like, weirdly connected with other people. It's just been like, Hey, is there something I can do to help you out? It's typically what I begin with just to see if there's some way to start building a relationship.
Jeff Holmann (32:48.994)
Well, I think it goes back to what we talking about before, just this whole emphasis on community, right? You might not have intended to use that, that recording and that episode with the HH to gain a relationship with a potential mentor you're looking at. But, by building the community, the kind of network effects happen. And all of a sudden you're, you're in a position where you have a chance to connect with somebody that you want to connect with. You know, that's maybe, maybe isn't the most direct way to do it, but, but
It's probably one of the stronger ways, right? You've now got somebody reaching out to you who you otherwise would have had to say, hey, can I bug you for a few minutes? Like, I don't want to impose. And they're like, Alex, I want to sit down and talk.
Alex Sanfilippo (33:31.488)
Right. Yeah. Like, you know, it might sound strangely not too connected, but the reality is I'm good at follow up. And I think that that's the key here. Like if you ask someone four years ago that you want to like, Hey, will you be my mentor? And you never talked to them again. You know, if like, you don't get it, the answer you want, I think that you're missing the opportunity. Tom only remembered who I was because I had reached out multiple times over the years, not saying, will you mentor me? Will you mentor me? Just being like, Hey, enjoyed this that you did. Just making sure I'm like, I don't need to be top of mind, but I need to be enough in your mind to know.
Hey, I probably know someone who has Alex's phone number. I like this. I want to talk to him. But if I would have just that initial interaction and nothing came from it, if I would have just left it at that two years later, whatever it was, when he heard this interview, he might not have even remembered that we met. It's the fact that I kept up with it. I think that too many of us, we give up too fast. listen, that's a business thing. That's a mentorship thing. I think that there's a real lesson in the fact of like, hey, relationships take time to really develop.
Jeff Holmann (34:22.989)
I love that. Has the journey been pretty similar for Alicia and who was your other co-founder? Jesse. I spaced his name. Sorry. it been a pretty similar trajectory for them on the team? mean, is it everyone's kind of going down the same path or have they had unique experiences from you because of maybe your, your role versus theirs, or you seem to be very much the face of, the company from what I've seen like
What's their experience been like?
Alex Sanfilippo (34:53.73)
Yeah, so I can only speak so much for them, but from we are a close group, we have two calls per week. So Mondays and Wednesdays, we do a call together. so, and then both our families are friends. Like we've known each other. We were in each other's weddings, like 12 or I guess 2012 and 2011, I think is what it was. And so like we've known each other a long time. So whenever we try to get together outside of work as well, and which Jesse's getting ready to move to the same city that we're in Jacksonville, Florida, which I'm thrilled about. That's gonna be really nice. So we'll all be in the same place.
But from what I can speak, I would say for Alicia, she runs on the operations side and she's very, very gifted at that. And so for her, I think it's been a really, it's been a great gig for her. For a while, I know she got a little bit burnt out just because of the amount of work that it was. Like as we were building out the systems, the different tools that we'd use, like all that stuff, like for a little bit, it was a lot and I'll admit. And some days it's obviously can still be a lot, but not like that where it's like, hey,
we went from like nothing to growing really fast. And now like we don't have the infrastructure to hold this type of thing. And being someone who built that out, I think that that was probably her biggest pain point. But I think for the most part, I watch her and she goes into a pretty good flow state. Like she can just get it done. That's one of the things I admire about her while keeping the whole foundation of the company really solid. And on Jesse's side, I think that he had to learn to become a better developer, which is so funny because he's actually like, I mean, he's so gifted. His job was like a big, government job.
so like there's only so much that can be said about before he got into this, like what he was doing, the amount of money he was making is like absolutely absurd. Like I didn't know anyone had jobs like that. And so, but the funny thing is he's like, yeah, I've had to learn quite a bit since I started this. He goes, I didn't expect to learn anything. He's like, I expected this to like kind of without saying it, he almost said it. I expected to make me dumber when it came to developing, but he's had, he's had to learn a lot and, he's always stepped up the challenge and I really admire that about him. So I think for, for Jesse, he loves to be challenged by his work.
And he didn't really expect that to be the case, but he has found it to be challenging. And I think the right amount of challenge and where he's able to make traction and not get burned out by it. But I think he's had a really fun experience. And for me, as I've gotten better about understanding how to prioritize the right work, that's actually good for the company. think he's learned to enjoy it even more because for a while it's like, Alex is serious again, random complex ideas. And now it's very structured, very pointed. A lot of data goes into any decision we make of the order of how we're going to develop things.
Alex Sanfilippo (37:17.238)
I think he likes that because he knows it's going to yield a result because we basically have the data to show that this will actually be good. And it wasn't just like a off the whim idea. So I think for them, we've all had different paths because we do such different work. There's almost no overlap in anything that we do, but I can say the one thing that's in common is like, although we've gone through ups and downs, like as a team, we've had a blast and really enjoyed it along the way.
Jeff Holmann (37:37.666)
That's awesome. And not everybody can say that about working with friends or family. So, and I work with, I work very closely with my wife. She runs the operations of our law firm. She does a fantastic job. She's way smarter than I am and it works for us most of the time. So, nothing I'm complaining about. She's got lots of reasons to complain about the stuff I do probably. so I, but I know it doesn't work for everybody. So kudos to you for, having a good working relationship in the business and outside the business. That's, that's fantastic.
Alex Sanfilippo (38:07.0)
Yeah, thank you.
Jeff Holmann (38:07.96)
Well, I'm going to ask you the hard question and then we give you a little bit of a chance to think about it. So before the show, we were asking, you you brought up the concept of, where would I be in five years? I'm not going to ask you personally where you're going to be in five years, although you can answer that if you want. I'd like to know where you'd like to see pod match in the next five years, assuming that it like, do you have another, you know, step like a step function growth? Do you just keep on the path you're on? I'd love to know where it's at.
But I want to give you a moment just for your brain to think about that in the background, because in the meantime, I'd like to know what's the advice that you would give somebody who's building a business that are further behind you on this, you know, maybe a similar path. And they've hit some of these rocks, these bumps in the road. Maybe they haven't, you know, been able to navigate their team or they haven't been able to find the right mentors or they've gotten a little bit of negative feedback from their customers like,
Like what are the things that you would tell somebody like that if they came to you and said, need a little advice, Alex.
Alex Sanfilippo (39:13.358)
The first thing I'd say is remembering the fact that you can't do it alone. There's the old Helen Keller quote that says, alone, we can do so little, but together we can do so much. And I think it's important to like, hey, just know you're never going to be able to do it alone. And I think the first step, if someone's actually coming to me, it means they have acknowledged that, right? And so it's a good step. If you're coming to someone else saying, hey, I'm kind of struggling here, like that level of transparency matters. And also the realization of like, I'm not going to be some rock star does it on my own. An example of this, I know we all
We all praise Elon Musk. I'm not trying to sell his achievement short. He has an incredible team around him. Like the most brilliant people on the planet surround him. It's not because he's some brainiac genius that does everything by himself. He's got countless people that are like the smartest people on the planet, right? And there's been plenty of leaders like that have modeled that really well. And so we're not going to be able to do it alone. And so I think for me, beyond that, it's important to be able to articulate what matters. So if someone's trying to be like, Alex, I'm really struggling. I just don't know what to do.
I'd like, well, where are you at today? And most people are not going have an answer for that. Well, where could you go tomorrow? They're not going have an answer for that. And so for me, I think it's super important to have this one key metric. The key metric is the one that actually is the trigger for everything else. And so like inside of our business, I'll share what I mean. Like I don't actually track our MRR, our monthly reoccurring revenue. Most software companies, that's what they want to see. What's your churn rate? What's this? What's that? Like there's all these numbers we use in software.
And when I really started diving into that, I found it a little bit overwhelming and it took my attention away from the community element. And I was like, I don't want that. I was like, so what metric triggers the rest of these to work well? What it comes down to in our business is interviews completed on the platform. The average number of interviews completed on the platform per day. And so I tell people like, if you can find your one metric and have a goal assigned to that or some sort of milestone that you want to reach, knowing that and saying, I've built everything else to work well, if I can get this number right. Now you can share something. It's like, okay,
to have more interviews completed every day on PodMatch, what do we need to do? We need to make sure more people are connecting faster, right? Like it needs to be the right people getting together.
Jeff Holmann (41:13.44)
you discover that? seems like, like I wouldn't know where to look. What did you just go through the numbers? You're like, listen, this number correlates to all the other positive stuff happening. Or was it like, how did you, how did you decide that in your business? I know this a little bit of a tangent from what we're super curious.
Alex Sanfilippo (41:25.848)
Yeah, no. Yeah. So for me, like I do love strategy. I love numbers. Like that stuff is fun for me to dive into. And so I've been using Excel since before, for it was like really like mainstream. And so like, I understand to use it really well. So I put everything into an Excel spreadsheet and started diving down and seeing like, if this moves, what, what else moves? Right. And so this is before we had clean metrics. Now we have metrics built around this. But for me, I was like, okay, like what's the one thing I finally got down to? I'm like, if the interviews are being completed, if that number is climbing, then pod match is healthy.
from a churn rate perspective, from a MRR perspective, from the people actually using the platform versus being inactive. And so my goal is just to grow that number. So interviews completed is what I look at. yes, monthly I go through and look at all the numbers and data, but I just know if I track this one and that number is climbing, it means we're actually really healthy. And so I continue, there's a percentage needs to grow and stuff like that, right? But that's what I track. And so when I have a problem and I'm bringing it to people that are mentors or to,
to anybody in my life, I'm realizing I need help. It's when that number seems to be struggling. And then I can kind of reverse engineer. like, okay, well, what needs to happen? Like, where's the friction point, right? In more interviews being completed. And so we look at our kind of like the flywheel approach. Have you heard of that, Jeff? Okay. So the flywheel, basically, like the faster a flywheel spins, the more powerful it gets. We look at it as three prong, it's marketing, it's conversion, it's retention. And so like, if our interviews completed or not, claim that we want to, we look at those three things and say, okay, is that a marketing problem?
conversion problem is a retention problem. Like what is, where is the weakest link to keeping this thing spinning faster so we can grow that number? I personally look at that. That's again, that's every month I'm looking at that and I'm tracking that and figuring out like where is the pain point right now. And there's always gonna be a different one. It's always evolving and changing, which everyone's weakest though. Just focus on it, fix that one and then see what happens next. That was probably more technical than I was supposed to get. I hope that's helpful.
Jeff Holmann (43:17.102)
And I hope that there's somebody in data analytics that listened to this podcast and says, I got to get Alex on so we can dive into the numbers here. I want to listen to that episode myself. So, that's fantastic. I love it. yeah. And I know I kind of took us off the off track from the, from what you would tell other people. but let's get to your, let's get to that last question now, five years from now, what does, what does this look like for you, for your team, for the company?
Where would you see yourself?
Alex Sanfilippo (43:47.992)
Yeah. So for me, obviously growing that interview completed number, right? Like that's the big metric there. But for me, I've really, in the last 365 days at time of recording this, I went to a ton of podcasting events. I went to meetups. I've talked to people online, done virtual. So I've done it all. And I'm realizing there is a huge shift to community centric business.
And so for me, I know that the next five years, and it won't take all that time, but I think to really get a true market adoption to it is going to take a while, but it's to shift our focus more and more to community. And so like for us, that means teaching people how to be a good affiliate for pod match. It means actually having community events in person and also virtual. means having, we call our legacy team, which are the people that want to basically part of the pod match evangelist street team type of thing, right? Like the people that are out there promoting it. we have a network inside of pod match.
And we're getting ready to do some other micro meetups and ways that people can just collaborate together inside the platform. We just launched a CRM inside of it. I know I'm sharing a lot of things, but the whole idea here is in this next five years, we want people to be able to say PodMatch is a community. I pay a membership for it because it has a platform side, but it is a community first and foremost. has connected me with other podcast guests and hosts and business partners and the people that I just needed to meet. And so we're really doing our best to turn that community hub or ecosystem.
And so in the next five years, I see us really being able to achieve that in this world that's just, the digital world that is just starving for some form of real human connection like it never has before. We want to really be at the forefront of helping make this a reality so that other people can follow it beyond our business as well.
Jeff Holmann (45:21.966)
I love that. And it's, you know, I think I've heard people suggest that community is that human element that AI will not be able to, to replicate. Right. And so we can sit on our, our digital therapist all day long if we want, but that's different from being in a community of other people doing something, you know, the line with your passion. So I, I'm excited to see where it goes and I'm excited to keep participating in that as it grows into more and more of a community. So.
Alex Sanfilippo (45:50.51)
Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate that, man. It means a lot. Yeah.
Jeff Holmann (45:52.874)
Yeah, no, and Alex, I appreciate you coming on the show. It's been a lot of fun. It's good to see the real side of businesses and for other people building businesses to see, I'm not the only one going through this. There's ups and downs and everybody does it. And I think my takeaway is, or my suggestion for some of the listeners out there who I know struggle a little bit more when they come up against hard questions is to maybe
think about the perspective shift that you introduced, at least for me, and that is, I asked them if I presented my problem to some really smart person. Instead of getting an answer, they said, yeah, that is a hard problem. And be able to walk away and say, my gosh, you know what? That should be, I'm gonna have to figure out how that's encouraging to me, because I think my attitude is, I'm kind of tuned to be like, I was hoping for progress, but now I gotta figure out.
So I've got a little bit of work to do on myself to figure out that right perspective, but I love it and I'm gonna work on it.
Alex Sanfilippo (46:56.46)
man, that's a cool takeaway. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that the encouragement there is just like, as CEOs, as founders, like we're trailblazers. Like there's times when the trail gets tough, like it gets scary, right? But I said it earlier in this conversation, maybe it was like in the icebreaker round, but courage means being afraid than doing what you have to do anyway. If there's smart people around you they haven't figured out yet, that means there's a real opportunity there and there's a chance for you to level yourself up. Let that be inspiring and encouraging. I know for me it has been, and obviously I'm going to go back and seek help, right?
I'm going to use everything I can to figure it out. But I now know like, man, I'm, I'm trailblazing. Let's figure this thing out. Right. And so, I'm glad you had a cool takeaway with that, Jeff. That's cool to hear.
Jeff Holmann (47:33.89)
Yeah, and not to extend this too long, but to add to that a little bit, the front lines issue. When you're pushing that front line forward because of the courage you have to step out, it's not just pushing it forward for you. If you've got this community mentality, you're pushing that front line forward for everybody. So I love this. So many takeaways here, Alex. It's been fantastic chatting with you. And so I just want to say thank you. Personally, I'm really glad to have a chance to talk with you.
but also on behalf of our audience, thank you for coming onto the show, Alex.
Alex Sanfilippo (48:05.558)
Yeah, Jeff, thank you so much. This was a blast, had a lot of fun here today.
Jeff Holmann (48:08.654)
It's been great. And to our audience, thank you for joining us again on another episode of The Breakout CEO. Be sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you enjoy the show, a rating or a review goes a long way. Our mission is to promote the stories of breakout CEOs in scaling SaaS, e-commerce, and tech companies to equip peer CEOs with valuable perspectives and confidence.
Thanks again for joining us on this episode of The Breakout CEO. I'm Jeff Holman and I'll see you next time.
