Many founder-led companies reach a stage where growth feels harder than it should.
Revenue is increasing. New initiatives are launching. The team is busy. Yet the CEO feels pulled deeper into day-to-day decisions instead of further away from them.
This pattern often appears in companies moving from multiple six figures into multiple seven figures. What began as entrepreneurial momentum starts to create operational friction. New projects pile up. Teams chase shifting priorities. The founder becomes the final decision point for too many things.
Derek Fredrickson sees the same underlying issue repeatedly in scaling businesses: complexity grows faster than structure. And when that happens, growth stops compounding through the organization and starts landing back on the CEO’s shoulders.
Founder-led companies begin with a natural imbalance. The founder’s strength is generating direction—new opportunities, new products, new markets.
That bias is not accidental. It is how most companies get started.
But as the organization grows, the same instinct that created early momentum begins to introduce friction. Vision expands faster than the organization’s ability to execute consistently.
Fredrickson describes the pattern this way:
“You can scale structure. You cannot scale complexity.”
Complexity appears when the organization absorbs new initiatives without clear operating structure beneath them. Teams work hard but move in different directions. Priorities shift week to week. Accountability becomes diffuse.
From the inside, it often feels like growth. From the outside, it looks like operational drift.
What is missing is not effort or ambition. It is a system that converts the founder’s ideas into repeatable execution.
A central element of Fredrickson’s framework is recognizing that founders and operators are wired differently.
Founders create direction. Operators create execution architecture.
Fredrickson captures the distinction in a simple operating model:
Each role solves a different problem in the company’s growth cycle.
Founders are comfortable with ambiguity, risk, and rapid shifts in direction. They start initiatives quickly and expect the organization to keep up.
Operators work differently. Their focus is alignment, accountability, and repeatability. They translate the founder’s direction into plans, metrics, and execution rhythms that the organization can sustain.
When these roles are clear and complementary, scale becomes possible. When they are blurred, complexity multiplies.
One of the most common symptoms Fredrickson encounters is leadership misalignment between the founder and the rest of the organization.
The founder believes the company is moving toward a particular outcome. The team interprets the direction differently. Execution moves in several directions simultaneously.
The result is organizational zigzagging—constant activity without consistent progress.
The problem rarely appears immediately. Early-stage teams can absorb ambiguity because the founder remains closely involved in execution. But as headcount grows and operational layers develop, that model stops working.
Without structural alignment, initiatives collide with each other:
In this environment, growth creates pressure rather than leverage.
Fredrickson’s work with scaling companies typically begins with clarifying the founder’s long-term objective.
What does the company actually want to become over the next one, three, or five years?
This exercise sounds simple, but many founders have never fully articulated the outcome they are trying to build toward. They generate ideas rapidly but rarely stop to define the operating destination.
Once the objective becomes clear, the operator’s role begins: translating that future state into execution architecture.
This often includes:
Numbers become central to the system. Metrics across marketing, sales, operations, and finance reveal where execution is working and where it is drifting.
The goal is not reporting for its own sake. It is visibility—clear signals that allow leadership to intervene before problems compound.
For founders, the shift from complexity to structure produces a change that is both operational and psychological.
Operationally, decision flow changes. The CEO no longer acts as the bottleneck through which every issue must pass. Teams operate with clearer ownership and fewer dependencies.
Psychologically, the founder experiences a change in how they spend time.
Fredrickson describes one of the most telling signals:
“One of the best feelings a founder can have is when they're spending more time in the sandbox of ideation and creativity than in the rigid box of the day-to-day.”
That shift indicates that execution responsibility has moved into the organization rather than remaining concentrated at the top.
The founder regains the cognitive space required for strategy, partnerships, and long-term thinking—the areas where their strengths usually matter most.
There is another pattern Fredrickson sees frequently in scaling companies.
Founders often say they want growth. Yet when opportunities appear, they hesitate or delay pursuing them.
The reason is rarely conscious.
If the company’s operational structure cannot absorb additional growth, the founder intuitively recognizes that expansion will increase their own workload. Every new client, product, or initiative ultimately flows back to them.
Fredrickson describes the internal tension this creates:
“If the growth and scale comes in, it's going to land on their shoulders.”
In this situation, resistance to growth becomes a protective mechanism.
Until structure exists to absorb expansion, growth threatens to amplify chaos.
Eventually many founders reach a realization: the company cannot continue scaling through founder-driven execution.
Fredrickson emphasizes that bringing in a true operator is not simply another hiring decision.
It is a structural redesign of leadership.
“It's not a transactional decision. It's a significant leadership shift in the company.”
The operator becomes the bridge between vision and execution. They own the translation of strategy into systems, metrics, and accountability.
For founders accustomed to direct control, this shift can be uncomfortable. It requires relinquishing operational ownership while maintaining strategic authority.
But when the transition works, the organization changes shape. Execution moves from founder-driven activity to institutional capability.
That transition is what allows growth to compound rather than accumulate friction.
Fredrickson’s framework reframes a common scaling challenge.
Many founders believe they must improve execution by working harder, hiring more staff, or pushing initiatives forward faster.
The real issue is often architectural.
Growth introduces complexity. Structure absorbs it.
Without structure, expansion multiplies coordination problems. With structure, expansion becomes repeatable.
For CEOs operating in the $5–50 million range, the question becomes less about what new opportunities to pursue and more about whether the organization is built to execute consistently.
When execution architecture catches up with ambition, growth stops landing back on the CEO—and begins moving through the organization instead.
For leaders feeling the pressure of scale, that distinction often determines whether growth compounds or stalls.
Derek Fredrickson is the founder of The COO Solution, where he advises multiple seven- and eight-figure founder-led companies on operational alignment and executive leadership structure. A former Chief Operating Officer, Fredrickson works with CEOs to install accountability systems, KPI dashboards, and operational frameworks that allow organizations to scale without increasing complexity.
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Jeff Holman is a CEO advisor, legal strategist, and founder of Intellectual Strategies. With years of experience guiding leaders through complex business and legal challenges, Jeff equips CEOs to scale with confidence by blending legal expertise with strategic foresight. Connect with him on LinkedIn.
Intellectual Strategies provides innovative legal solutions for CEOs and founders through its fractional legal team model. By offering proactive, integrated legal support at predictable costs, the firm helps leaders protect their businesses, manage risk, and focus on growth with confidence.
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The Breakout CEO podcast brings you inside the pivotal moments of scaling leaders. Each week, host Jeff Holman spotlights breakout stories of scaling CEOs—showing how resilience, insight, and strategy create pivotal inflection points and lasting growth.
Listen and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform:
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Want to be a guest—or know a scaling CEO with a breakout story to share? Apply directly at go.intellectualstrategies.com.
TRANSCRIPT SUMMARY
00:00 Intro – Welcome to the Breakout CEO Podcast
00:12 Derek Fredrickson joins from Paris
00:43 Advisory Insights series and episode topic
01:10 Executive leadership misalignment in scaling companies
02:18 Derek’s background and the COO Solution
03:30 Why founders get stuck in the day-to-day
04:12 The “new level, new devil” concept in business growth
05:05 Founder vs operator roles in scaling a business
06:00 Empowering teams vs hiring a second-in-command
06:59 The “Make it up, make it real, make it recur” framework
08:22 Process-driven vs person-driven companies
09:44 Scaling chaos vs scaling structure
10:18 Starting with the North Star vision
11:22 Trusting the COO to execute the plan
12:17 Case study – engineering firm transformation
13:11 The problem with “drive-by delegation”
14:30 Building accountability and execution systems
14:59 Project tracking with color-coded progress (green/yellow/red)
17:14 Revenue growth and the power of unplugged vacations
18:13 How successful COOs think differently
18:42 Understanding CEO vs COO wiring (Kolbe assessment)
20:02 The COO as the business “air traffic controller”
21:20 Signals of leadership misalignment
21:54 Why numbers and KPIs reveal alignment issues
23:40 Building a culture of accountability
24:35 The feeling of true leadership alignment
26:10 Why founders subconsciously block growth
27:53 Structure first, then scale
28:49 Focus on the “how,” not just the “what”
29:49 Final advice for scaling CEOs
30:56 Where to find Derek and the COO Solution
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Jeff Holman (00:01.314)
Welcome back to the breakout CEO podcast friends. I'm Jeff Holman, your host, and I'm really glad to be here today with Derek Fredrickson. Derek, thanks for coming on the show.
Derek Fredrickson (00:01.683)
Welcome back to the Breakout CEO Podcast, friends. I'm Jeff Holman, your host, and I'm really glad to be here today with Derek Frederiksen. Derek, thanks for coming on the show. You're welcome, Jeff. It's great to be here. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm glad to have you. You're coming in from Paris, right? That's right. Paris, France. I've been here for, obviously American, but I've been here for about 10 years. I love it. Yeah. a week there on a one month trip through Europe last summer. June, was it? I think June.
Jeff Holman (00:12.918)
Yeah, I'm glad to have you. You're coming in from Paris, right?
Jeff Holman (00:21.59)
I love it. I love it. spent a week there on a one month trip through Europe last summer. June, it? think June, May, June, June, July. can't remember. We spent a month in Europe with the family and stayed one week in Paris. Absolutely loved it. Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (00:30.343)
May, June, June, July, I remember. We spent a month in Europe with the family and stayed one week in Paris. lovely. Absolutely loved it. Yeah. We moved here for one year and then one year's turning to 10. So there you go. Well, I should turn my one weekend to four There you go. Yeah. Perfect. Well, we're here to talk today. This is part of our advisory insights series where we bring on advisors and experts who help.
Jeff Holman (00:43.374)
Well, I should turn my one week into four weeks next time or something like that. Well, we're here to talk today. This is part of our advisory insights series where we bring on advisors and experts who help our other audience members, our scaling CEOs, our founders who are building businesses, and we share some frameworks, insights, resources that people like you, experts and service providers can bring.
Derek Fredrickson (00:55.784)
our other audience members, our scaling CEOs, our founders who are building businesses, and we share some frameworks, insights, resources that people like you, experts and service providers can bring to other members of our audience. And so today we're talking about finding and fixing executive leadership misalignment issues in scaling businesses. So I'm excited to talk about this as I talk to...
Jeff Holman (01:10.638)
to other members of our audience. And so today we're talking about finding and fixing executive leadership misalignment issues in scaling businesses. So I'm excited to talk about this as I've talked to a lot of our CEO guests. You know, this comes up so often. So many people are like, well, I was aligned and then I wasn't, or I never got aligned until I did. And that weaves into their success stories almost every time. I bet you run into that quite a bit.
Derek Fredrickson (01:23.688)
a of our CEO guests. You know, this comes up so often. So many people are like, well, I was aligned and then I wasn't. I never got aligned until I did. that weaves into their success stories almost every time. I bet you run into that quite a bit. A lot. Actually, with the clients that we work with, our clients are companies that are scaling and growing at multiple seven to multiple eight figures. And this is one of the...
inevitable subjects that we get into in the very beginning, because there's usually some misalignment from the get-go. And so part of what we have developed are some ideas and methodologies of how to break the misalignment and get the operator and the founder back on the same page so that things start moving in a positive direction and back on track. So yeah, it's definitely a big part of what we do. I love that. Well, before we jump into that, meat of it, let's give us a background on where you work, what you do, what takes you to France? Is that part of
Jeff Holman (02:08.942)
I love that. Well, before we jump into that, the meat of it, let's give us some background on where you work, what you do, what takes you to France? Is that part of what you're doing or is that just tangential?
Derek Fredrickson (02:18.088)
Is that part of what you're doing or that just a tangential? It's somewhat part of it. That could be a whole other episode, but my wife and I moved here really for quality of life. She owns a business coaching company and my business is remote. So we had an opportunity to spend a year here with our family and experience a different culture, different language. And we did all of that. But everything that we do is primarily US based. So US clients, US companies, US team.
Jeff Holman (02:24.75)
Ha ha ha.
Derek Fredrickson (02:43.787)
but yeah, my, my background, I've been doing COO chief operating officer kind of second in command work for about 15 years. And then I kind of took off the COO operator hat two years ago and launched the COO solution, and kind of put the CEO visionary hat on. I have a unique perspective of being both an operator and a, and a founder, if you will, and launched the COO solution. Essentially we provide a done for you fractional COO model for companies that are scaling basically to remove the founder from the day to day.
Jeff Holman (03:02.698)
Love it. Love it.
Derek Fredrickson (03:13.691)
streamline operations, hold the team accountable, create the structure and the systems and the process for scale so that they can get to their objectives, their goals of whatever they want to accomplish, whether that might be exit, it might be double my business, it might be I just want to take a break from the day to day and have somebody run my business for me. So that's how we step in and provide that model. Yeah. Well, do you find that that's, I mean, that seems to me, but do you find that
Jeff Holman (03:20.099)
Yeah.
Jeff Holman (03:30.839)
Yeah. Well, do you find that that's, I mean, that seems to me, but do you find that that's one of the key functions for going from, from an operator to a scaling business? I mean, because a lot of people, build their business around themselves. That's like they're skilled operators. They're really smart people. They, they're engaging, they build relationships, they service their customers better than everybody else. And that's why people hire them.
Derek Fredrickson (03:41.05)
functions.
Derek Fredrickson (03:44.87)
from an operator to a scaling business. mean, because a lot of people, build their business around themselves. Like they're skilled operators, they're really smart people, they're engaging, they build relationships, they service their customers, else. And that's why people hire them. And then one day they're like, wait a second. I mean, this happens in the legal field that I'm in all the time. Wait a second, I'm now in the golden handcuffs or I'm in legal jail because I'm like, how do I?
Jeff Holman (04:00.045)
And then one day they're like, wait a second. I mean, this, this happens in the legal field that I'm in all the time. Wait a second. I'm now in, I'm now in the golden handcuffs or I'm in, you know, legal jail because I'm like, how do I, how do I build beyond me? Is that what you're talking about?
Derek Fredrickson (04:12.006)
Yeah, yeah for sure. think it's inevitable and there's nothing wrong with that path I think entrepreneurship is never linear. So in the beginning they had to be the jack-of-all-trades They had to be the marketer of the salesperson the customer service the bookkeeper the website developer even if they didn't know how to build a website and I think as companies have grown they've realized that okay I need support. I need somebody that I can count on to help execute at a certain level to relieve
Jeff Holman (04:37.123)
Mm-hmm.
Derek Fredrickson (04:37.583)
some of the day-to-day that they might be involved with. So they hire doers, they hire the bookkeeper, they hire the customer service person, they might hire somebody that can handle the operations. But at a certain point, it's like new level, new devil. So they always hit that glass ceiling of complexity. And I think especially for companies and founders, when they're at that multiple seven figure mark, if they see the light that more of the same is more of the same, they actually need a significant leadership change in the company in order to scale.
Jeff Holman (05:04.056)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (05:05.572)
And they need to really embrace the role more of the founder and of the visionary and less of the operator, which is hard for entrepreneurs because they love to jump in and fix things. They love to be the problem solver. They love to be the person for everything. But at a certain point, they actually need to step out of the doing and often say, do less better, meaning more thinking, less doing, and rely on somebody that is a trusted second in command who has the zone of genius to run companies, to hold
Jeff Holman (05:16.622)
.
Jeff Holman (05:26.222)
Mm-hmm.
Derek Fredrickson (05:35.014)
Team members accountable and create the structure to scale founders are not wired to create structure It's it's not very sexy for them in the sense that they maybe want it But they don't want to be the one to do it But when they know that structure is actually the thing that helps them scale and when they can bring in somebody that they can trust to build that structure That's when they can step back and really see that shift can happen in a really big way But without having them to be the one that's actually doing all of the heavy lifting. Yeah
Jeff Holman (05:40.268)
Yeah.
Jeff Holman (06:00.642)
Yeah, that makes sense. And you said a phrase a little while back that I'd never heard before. I love it. New level, new devil. So that's, can see how that applies. When you're talking about this type of work, are you talking about like empowering your team below you? Or are you talking about actually bringing in somebody who compliments you at the top level? Are those the same thing or are those different?
Derek Fredrickson (06:04.922)
I've before, I love it. New level, new devil. that's, I can see how that applies. When you're talking about this type of work, are you talking about, are you talking about like empowering your team below you? Or are you talking about actually bringing in somebody who compliments you at the top level? Are those the same thing or are different?
They're different, but it's part of what a really good second in command will do. So I often describe part of what our model is, is on a vertical spectrum. And the vertical spectrum is that we are your strategic thought partner. We are your trusted second in command. We are the one that works with the founder to say, what is the big idea? What is the bigger future? What is the vision? What's your North star that you want? It might be scale. It might be exit. Like I said, it might be, you want to take an unplugged vacation for a couple of weeks. You may want to go to Paris and have a one week vacation instead of a, four weeks instead of a one week.
Jeff Holman (06:54.606)
Exactly.
Derek Fredrickson (06:59.333)
And the second in command, the COO is the one that captures that as the idea. We're the ones that say, okay, now let me develop the strategy. Now let me create the plan and cascade that down into execution, implementation, and the tactics with the team members that are aligned so that they know what they need to do day in, week out in order to move the business forward. So we're kind of the glue between the strategy to the execution. I often say that the role of the founder, they make it up.
Right? The role of the COO is we make it real, we make it happen, and then the team is the one that makes it recur. The systems, the processes, the right people, the right seats. And sometimes at that team level, we assess and say, do you have the right seats? Do you the right people in the right seats? Maybe you have the right person, but they're in the wrong seat, or they don't really know what their seat is. Maybe their role isn't clear, their responsibilities aren't clear. And so we kind of either...
Jeff Holman (07:29.56)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Holman (07:33.523)
yeah.
Jeff Holman (07:50.968)
Mm-hmm.
Derek Fredrickson (07:53.122)
I would say maybe up level in a way, like build a culture of accountability and a culture of ownership within the team so that they can do things more efficiently, like get things done quickly and they can do things more effectively. So they're getting a higher result. But also sometimes we might say that's not the right person. They're not aligned in your values. They're not aligned in the culture of accountability. And we may need to bring in a better person for that right seat, but it's the, it's the vertical spectrum. That's the strategy all the way to the execution, but the team component is a big part. I often say that.
Jeff Holman (08:02.744)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (08:22.318)
Part of our work is to create a process driven, not a person driven company. And that doesn't mean we don't value people, but when your team has a really good process to follow, they can get in line and do really, really good work. So we focus on the process as well as the people. Yeah. Well, and people love, people usually love to know what their expectations are. Exactly. So a process helps them fit in better and collaborate in the right way. Yeah. Now you said, I missed the first one. I can't remember. You said something about...
Jeff Holman (08:28.428)
Yeah.
Jeff Holman (08:35.35)
Well, and people love, people usually love to know what their expectations are of them too. So a process helps them fit in better and collaborate in the right way. now you said, I missed the first one. I can't remember it. You said something about the CEO's job is to make it something and then make it real.
Derek Fredrickson (08:51.268)
The CEO job is to make it something and then make it- Yeah. Their job is to make it, their job is to make it up. The big idea, the big vision, right? Make it up, make it real, make it recur. The COO is the one that makes it real, make it happen. And then the team, like you said, they just want to have their lane. I called them and we all need them when we love them. They're the worker bees, they're the busy bees. They're like the ones that dot the I's and cross the T's, but if they have a process to follow and a framework or a system.
Jeff Holman (08:58.006)
Make it up. that's it. Yep.
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (09:19.064)
They feel really empowered because then they know exactly what to do, how to do it, when to do it by that might be SOPs, it might be project management system, it might be checklist, and it's a more structured way of doing things. And you can scale structure, you cannot scale complexity. And if you have a business that feels complex because the team members are misaligned, the founder thinks we're going here, the team members think we're going over there. I mean, that's just like, you're gonna have zigzag all the time, which is not.
Jeff Holman (09:26.904)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Holman (09:44.463)
I will say, I think I've talked to some CEOs who said that they have effectively scaled complexity. The results aren't good, but they've scaled the chaos sometimes. Well, so give me an example of what it is that you would do or maybe a company you've worked with, a CEO who you've stepped in to be their right-hand man. What does that look like and what kind of results are you able to achieve?
Derek Fredrickson (09:53.304)
Yeah.
It's scaled the chaos sometimes. Well, so give me an example of what it is that you would do or maybe a company you've worked with, a CEO who you've stepped in to be that right-hand man. What does that look like and what kind of results are you able to achieve? Yeah, I think we always start with where do you want to be? Again, I always say, what's your North Star? The North Star might be exit. It might be scale. it's when do you want to accomplish that? I don't want to know the next quarter or the next six months.
Jeff Holman (10:18.851)
Mm-hmm.
Derek Fredrickson (10:25.133)
Paint the picture one, three, five years out. What does that look like? Start with the end in mind and say, okay, if that's where we're headed, if that's the objective, first of all, what's the intention? What's the real objective of why you want to accomplish that? Is it just because you wanna make more money? Is it because you wanna take a break? Is it because you wanna exit? Start with the end in mind and I often say, part of our role is getting the founder to sell themselves on what is the objective of what they're trying to create.
Jeff Holman (10:42.595)
Mm-hmm.
Derek Fredrickson (10:52.183)
Because if they haven't sold themselves on it, how are they going to sell it with the team and say, hey guys, here's where we're going? So we kind of, and visionaries are, as you probably know, CEOs, founders, they're high idea generators. So one day it might be this, and one day it might be that. They're throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. And we say, if this is going to stick, then that's where we're headed. But let's get really, really clear and sell yourself first on the vision. Then we can cascade that into the plan. So it starts with that kind of intentionality and what's the real objective from there. It's like, okay.
Jeff Holman (10:52.462)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (11:22.241)
Trust the process. Trust that your operator is the one that's going to make it happen. They're going to own the strategy, the KPIs, the metrics, the results. You don't need to, as the founder, step in and micromanage. You don't need to babysit. You don't need to be the one, we, know, did we do this? Did we do that? Because they're not wired for that. They're not wired for accountability. They're not wired for that day-to-day execution. They're wired for thinking big. So let them continue to think big and stay in the visionary box.
while they have a trusted operator that's actually owning the result and owning the outcome in a more systematic process driven way. I'll give you an example, which is probably a long way to get to your question. So classic scenario, we work, I won't mention a name because you know, he still works with us and you know, it's an engineering company in Arizona. Well, let me give the disclaimer that you should be giving too. Everybody's been through this. Like this is not uncommon.
Jeff Holman (11:59.491)
No, this is great.
Jeff Holman (12:08.43)
Well, and let me give the disclaimer that you should be giving too. Everybody's been through this. Like, this is not uncommon. It's normal that, like, you could put any name on there and it would probably apply to all of us, so.
Derek Fredrickson (12:17.217)
You could put any name on there. Exactly. So client X, client X, he or she owns an engineering company. And so they were doing about two and a half million a year. And the founder classic example, working nights and weekends, constantly on the phone, pinging. There was no structure. was no, everything was chaos. was, was whack-a-mole. And part of that was the difficulty for him to take this. have lots of crazy ideas. I have lots of things I want to start.
Jeff Holman (12:26.446)
Mm-hmm.
Derek Fredrickson (12:46.242)
but I have nobody here to finish them. And the team is trying to like say, okay, here's the big vision and I'm trying to do my day to day. I have no direction. I have no clarity. I have no real path of what my part is in that. so one- Lobby stuff over the- Yeah. Hey, take care of this. It's going to be cool once you figure it out. Exactly. Yeah. I'm going to a client visit and like, here's this new project. And I call it like, you know, drive by delegation of it. And let me know how goes on Monday and I'll see you after the weekend, you know?
Jeff Holman (12:57.836)
It's just lobbing stuff over the fence like, hey, take care of this. It's going to be cool once you figure it out.
Derek Fredrickson (13:11.936)
the team is left holding this and be like, okay, now I have this brand new thing that the business owner wants me to move forward. I don't know what the objective is. I don't know what the intention is. I don't know what my role is. And also how am I supposed to do this when I've also got the rest of my day-to-day that I'm already focused on from the stuff that he asked me last week. So one of the first things we did is said, first of all, you need to get clear on what's your objective. What is it that you really, really want? And then from there I said, okay, great.
Jeff Holman (13:28.225)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (13:36.992)
Let's reverse engineer, and this is what a really good COO does. They reverse engineer to say, okay, this is where we are today. This is where you want to be in one year time. What needs to happen in the first week, the first month, the first quarter, the second quarter, et cetera, so that we know where we're going based on your objective and what we're doing daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly in order to be on track with that. And part of that was also trusting the process and knowing that
visionaries are not wired to finish things. They're wired to start new things and let us come in and do the implementation, do the completion. And so as a result, the team felt more, I would say more empowered. Like they feel like they could be more responsible for what their role is, because they knew the objective. They knew the clarity of what their part was to make that happen. The founder then also as a matter of trust, but also kind of flexing the muscle of boundary, like...
Jeff Holman (14:09.667)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (14:30.665)
not stepping back in when you feel like you have to rescue or you feel like you have to save and kind of micromanage. And we're not babysitters. We create the structure for accountability, which allows the work to get done. So we don't have to say, did you do this? Did you do that? Where are we, et cetera. And then one of the things I'll share, which has worked really, really well for us with our clients is that as we're progressing on those big objectives, those big projects, rocks, whatever they're going to be that are going to get us to the future goal, we have a very transparent way to reflect.
Jeff Holman (14:45.037)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (14:59.657)
Are we on track or are we off track? So on track, it's a color system. On track means green. Great. I don't need to know anything else. It's on track. There are no issues. Go team, go. Yellow. Sorry. the CEO who is a visionary probably doesn't want to know more than No, they don't. Please don't be yellow today because I don't want to have to dig into the details. Yeah. And I don't want the story. I don't want the drama. I don't want all the... I just want the top line summary. The top line summary is that project is on track.
Jeff Holman (15:03.415)
Yeah.
Jeff Holman (15:10.508)
Right. And a CEO who is a visionary probably doesn't want to know more than that. Like, please don't be yellow today, because I don't want to have to dig into the details. Like, just make it green. Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (15:29.153)
It's green. Great. Go to the next one. It's off track, but we're very confident it's going to be on track because there's some issues we need to solve. Okay, that's fine. That's yellow. Orange is off track. We're somewhat confident. The issues are surfing a bit more. There might be some confusion. There might be some complexity. So we're still somewhat confident, but we're kind of in the middle. Red is we're off track and we're not confident to get back on track. That's where the CEO can step back in because maybe there needs to be.
Jeff Holman (15:29.303)
Right.
Jeff Holman (15:47.725)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (15:55.197)
add another layer of clarity or another layer of like, guys, this is what the vision is. Go team, go drum up the troops, so to speak. Exactly. Or me, you know, read, read, read, adjust resources, or maybe somebody needs to pivot into a different direction. and purple is, know, we haven't even started it yet. We haven't even made any momentum whatsoever. And then blue is actually it's done, but, I think that's really helpful for a visionary who is a visual person to be able to assess and feel.
Jeff Holman (16:00.684)
Right, or authorizing the resources or whatever. Yeah.
Jeff Holman (16:12.735)
Okay.
Derek Fredrickson (16:22.24)
Confident on where we are without having to feel like I have to step back in and save things all the time Yeah, well, I'm curious in well first off. How did the how did the engineering firm? Proceed from there so I have two questions. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, that's what the team size I wanted to convince CEO with an engineering firm What was the team size just for content? Yeah, they had about
Jeff Holman (16:27.52)
Yeah, well, I'm curious then. Well, first off, how did the how did the engineering firm proceed from there? Like what was the I have two questions actually. Sorry. What was the team size? I want to because you got a CEO with an engineering firm, two and a half million. What was the team size just for context? And then and then what was the result?
Derek Fredrickson (16:44.64)
I would say about six to eight field engineers. know, there people that were doing operations. They had some marketing people, people in sales. So probably the whole operation was about 20. And the founder had been growing more and more. But as a result of this over a period of time, two things happened. Number one, revenue grew, but not just revenue grew, profit grew. So that was the tangible result. That's what the founder really wanted. But the intangible, the thing that I actually think made the difference more, is that he actually stepped out of the doing and was able to
Jeff Holman (16:49.752)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Holman (16:53.592)
Okay.
Jeff Holman (17:03.886)
Mm.
Derek Fredrickson (17:14.688)
Kidding me not, first time ever taking unplugged vacation where he wasn't checking his email and phone all days of the time. And you know, that's one of those things that you can't get that back. You can't get that time back. So if you're able to step away from the business and be able to trust and know that things are being done and come back and see results and progress and momentum even better than if you were there, one, they want to take another vacation and two, they feel so much more confident and confidence is everything. Cause when they feel confident,
Jeff Holman (17:19.938)
Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Holman (17:35.981)
Yeah.
Jeff Holman (17:39.32)
You
Derek Fredrickson (17:44.425)
then they feel really clear about where we're going and how we're going to get there. So it was kind of a two-pronged benefit, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. And when they feel confident, the team sees that. The team feels confident. Totally. It goes throughout the organization. Yeah. Well, I'd like to know, because I'm curious, what should a scaling CEO who's dealing with some chaos know about how a structure, successful COO
Jeff Holman (17:50.753)
Yeah, yeah. And when they feel confident, the team sees that the team feels confident. It goes throughout the organization for sure. Well, I'd like to know, because I'm curious, what should a scaling CEO who's dealing with some chaos know about how a structured, you know, successful COO thinks? Because that seems to me there's a difference there, right? Like, I want to understand the thinking of the COO.
Derek Fredrickson (18:13.632)
Because that seems to me there's a difference there, right? Like I want to understand the thinking of the COO so that I can know how to give stuff to the COO or how to present it. Maybe I'm overthinking that. Maybe just give them everything and let it go. But I think if CEOs understand the different thinking processes a COO might use, that might help them to leverage or work in a complementary way. Sure. So one of the things that we do with all of our clients is we use a lot of assessments.
Jeff Holman (18:20.11)
so that I can know how to give stuff to the COO or how to present it. Maybe I'm overthinking that. Maybe it's just give them everything and let it go. But I think if CEOs understand the different thinking processes a COO might use, that might help them to leverage or to work in a complimentary way.
Derek Fredrickson (18:42.759)
And assessments are really, powerful in understanding how are individuals, for example, wired to take action and what are their strengths? These are two different assessments. One is called COBE, K-O-L-B-E, which is an assessment that allows individuals, it's not a personality thing, but allows us to understand like, are you wired to take action? Are you wired by doing fact-finding research? Do you follow systems? Do you think in a process-driven way? Are you one that mitigates risk? That's the COO. The CEO doesn't follow a system.
Jeff Holman (19:08.781)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (19:11.475)
They don't do a lot of fact finding and research. They have an idea and they kind of jump in and go with it and they have a high tolerance for risk, which is why they initiate and start lots of things. So on paper it's oil and water. But when you know that that's typically how a CEO is wired and how a CEO is wired and you can bridge the gap from strategy to execution, from creation to ownership, that's where things really start to gel. So that's one of the very first things that we do is, you know, through that assessment, but also
Jeff Holman (19:34.37)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (19:39.868)
Like I described, mean, COOs are, they love running other people's companies. That's their zone of genius. They love being in the back seat or the backstage. They don't want the front stage. They don't want the spotlight. They like to be kind of like the wizard in the Wizard of Oz, you know, behind the curtain, like pulling all the things to make it all happen because they see everything. They're kind of like an air traffic controller looking at the entire business and saying,
Jeff Holman (19:54.934)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (20:02.643)
This is what's not working in marketing. This is what's working in ops. This is what's not working in that team capacity. They have an eye into the day to day where the founder sometimes doesn't because it's not exciting for them. It doesn't light them up because it's like details. It's like the little nitty gritty of what's going on in the day to day where they want to focus on the vision. They want to focus on the big idea. So the CEO is more wired and has strengths and execution and implementation. We love to get stuff done.
Jeff Holman (20:21.079)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (20:31.046)
CEOs don't like to get stuff done. They like to create, they like to ideate, they like to develop relationships and network and partnerships and sales and everything and culture. So there's very clear boxes, if you will. And when you can get the CEO and the CEO to agree that that's your lane, that's my lane, never shall the two cross. Because if I, as a COO, start to try to pretend to be the CEO, as a here's the culture, here's the vision, here's the big idea.
Jeff Holman (20:38.349)
Right, right.
Derek Fredrickson (20:58.846)
First of all, business owners are be like, no, you're not, this is my thing. And if the CEO steps in and tries to micromanage, babysit, or hold people accountable in a way that they would because it's not their natural strength, it's going to be like oil and water. So part of it is just understanding who you naturally are and kind of tap into that more in both categories, both for the CEO and the COO. I hope that helps, yeah. That makes perfect sense. It makes me wonder though, where like...
Jeff Holman (21:00.941)
Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Holman (21:20.654)
Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. It makes me wonder though, how will a CEO know or what should they be looking for? What kind of signals, because they're not measuring stuff like the CEO, right? So they work off these signals a lot of times, not measurements. What kind of signals should the CEO be aware of to recognize when there is leadership misalignment?
Derek Fredrickson (21:28.349)
How will a CEO know or what should they be looking for? What kind of signals? Because they're not measuring stuff like the CEO. So they work out these signals a lot of times, not measurement. What kind of signals should the CEO be aware of to recognize when there is leadership misalignment and something needs to happen?
Jeff Holman (21:50.414)
that something needs to happen.
Derek Fredrickson (21:54.201)
So in addition to the status tracking or the progress tracking I shared before, it was just the way that I operate and all of our COOs thinking this way, we are very analytical. We are very numbers driven. And I firmly believe that numbers do not lie. They tell the story of what's working and what's not working. So one of the first things that we do when we work with the client, say, OK, are you tracking KPIs?
Jeff Holman (22:04.6)
Mm-hmm.
Derek Fredrickson (22:16.282)
Metrics do have a dashboard. Are you looking at you know, the numbers that need to actually drive the performance of the business? And I just don't mean financial numbers because that's where they usually gravitate like what's my P &L? What's my cash balance etc? I'm talking about a scorecard or a dashboard with KPIs and metrics across marketing sales operations and finance now It doesn't have to be every single number that's going on but the key drivers that are really going to paint the picture of are we on track?
are we getting our results? And if there are numbers that are indicating to us that we're not getting our targets met, then it can come back to us and say, okay, who owns that number? Who owns, for example, the number of leads? Who owns, for example, the client satisfaction? Or who owns how well we're closing prospects to paying clients and customers? Maybe it's the salesperson, maybe it's the marketer. But that's part of this culture of accountability. Say, listen, not only are you in charge of
your day-to-day responsibilities if you're in the marketing seat as an example. But you also have ownership to lead generation. You have ownership to website traffic, to paid ads, whatever that is. And if we have targets that we know we need to hit in order to get to our objective in our North Star, and every single week we see that those numbers are not hitting our target, something's off. And we'll say, what's the issue with the number being off? Who owns the number? And what are they going to do to fix it to get bad on?
Jeff Holman (23:22.392)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Holman (23:40.941)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (23:41.786)
back on track. That's what I call a culture of accountability, but it really stems from the numbers because then it can really pinpoint at a detailed level what's working and what's not. And I think on a positive note, know, CEOs don't love a lot of metrics and charts and flow charts and everything else, but they like to see what's working and what's not. through the story of the numbers, they can kind of determine, okay, I feel again, confident that we're on track.
Jeff Holman (23:52.311)
Right.
Jeff Holman (24:00.239)
You
Derek Fredrickson (24:10.756)
Or if need to step in, can identify how and where I need to step in because I can see that we're off based on these numbers as an example. And I think energetically, like what you track, you attract. So we were looking at things every single week. It's a great lead generation is up. Closing is up. The financials are good. Great. Go team, go. It's just a rising tide lifts all boats and everybody feels more empowered and more engaged as a result of that. So it's usually numbers. Yeah. Well, and what's the...
Jeff Holman (24:18.125)
Yeah.
Jeff Holman (24:35.66)
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, and what's the what's the non number feeling or the non number signal that they'll feel once there is alignment? How like is it just they see a bunch of green every week and they're like, okay, great, we're running smoothly. Or or is there something more when when they say, you know what, it's not just that my team is hitting metrics, and we're achieving results. But like, I feel like my, like my leadership team is really functioning well. It's
Derek Fredrickson (24:39.493)
What's the non-number feeling or the non-number signal?
Is it just they see a bunch of green every week and they're like, okay great, we're running smoothly or is there something more when they say, you know what, it's not just that my team is hitting metrics and we're achieving results, but like I feel like my leadership team is really functioning well. Do they just feel it or is there something more that they could watch for as a signal? I think it's both, but if I'm being honest, I think it is a feeling.
Jeff Holman (25:05.526)
Like, do they just feel it or is there something more that they could watch for as a signal?
Derek Fredrickson (25:15.343)
because it's also something that in most cases in the past, it's a feeling that maybe they haven't had before because there's been this frantic energy of I need to kind of control, need to micromanage, I need to step in and everything else. I think one of the best feelings that a founder can have is when they're spending more time in the sandbox of ideation and creativity and vision than they are in the rigid box of the day to day. And so oftentimes if we work with a founder and I feel like they can,
you know, take that vacation and disconnect, or they can take a day out of the office and just, you know, go to the library or stay at home or just, you know, read books, listen to podcasts, do mind maps, whatever that is. Like that feeling just lights them up so much more when they know that they have the trust, the faith and the confidence that the day to day is handled. And I also, so I kind of, I go like this, like it's hard for them to be like waiting or wanting this to be taken care of. And also at the same time, focusing on the next big thing.
Because here's what happens. I do this all the time and it's very enlightening, I think, for CEOs. So CEOs, they want growth, they want scale, they want whatever the big thing. So they're like, bring me the scale, bring me the growth, bring me the freedom. But hold on, subconsciously, if they put up the blinder, because their backend, their operations, their team, their structures and systems is not meant to handle the growth and scale. So subconsciously, they kind of block it because if the growth and scale comes in,
it's gonna land on their shoulders. So they kind of feel like subconsciously, I don't want the growth at scale anymore because it's gonna be too much. So.
Jeff Holman (26:43.371)
Right. man. Have you been watching my business? What's going on? You're described like literally as we're a five person law firm, five attorney law firm. We have some staff and for two years I went out and I'm like, I'm going to build this part of our business. And I started everything and I got halfway into it. And I'm like, we don't have the structure for this. Like, what am I doing? And so I stopped. And then I did it the next year because I was excited and then I stopped and then
Derek Fredrickson (27:00.308)
and I started everything and I, you know, halfway into it and I'm like, we don't have the structure for this. What am I doing? And so I stopped. And then I did it the next year, because I was excited and then I stopped. And then it came to my mind again, I'm like, no wait, I've done this twice now. And I went to my team, instead of me just jumping and I went to my team and I said, hey listen, I've tried this twice, I'm really excited about this.
Jeff Holman (27:11.051)
And then I got, came to my mind again. I'm like, no, wait, I've done this twice now. And I went to my team instead of me just jumping. And I went to my team. said, Hey, listen, I've tried this twice. I'm really excited about this. it's going to be good for everybody once we get to it, but we need to put this type of infrastructure in place first. If you can do that. And I'm going to, I'm going to do my best to hold off and not try to jump in. If you can do that. And once that's ready, then we're.
Derek Fredrickson (27:24.908)
it's going to be good for everybody once we get to it, but we need to put this type of infrastructure in place first. If you can do that, and I'm going to do my best to hold off and not change up it. If you can do that, and once that's ready, then that's going to be one of our growth paths. so we finally, without me doing this start stop dance, we finally have everybody on board. We're building out the structure to handle the growth instead of just
Jeff Holman (27:38.764)
that's gonna be one of our growth paths. And so we finally, without me doing this start stop dance, we finally have everybody on board. We're building out the structure to handle the growth instead of just trying to push the growth without the structure. So you've described, I think, one of the dances I've done the last few years.
Derek Fredrickson (27:53.434)
trying to push the growth of You've described, I think, one of the dances I've done in last few years. It's totally natural. mean, that's the journey, right? And that's part it. And I love what you said because that part of what you had is the idea. It was the inspiration, the download, whatever it is to be like, I feel we need more structure. I feel we need to create something that's going to be the foundation for us to grow and scale. But what you did is you made it up.
But you didn't have to be the one to make it real. There could be team members that are like, okay, should we just go, do we need a project management system? Do we need better SOPs? Do we need more checklists? And that's the make it real part. And then team members are then feeling empowered because then they have the SOPs and the checklists and the tools of actually doing things in a different way. I'll share this, which I think is really helpful for the audience is that for founders that are looking to grow in scale. And of course it's what you need to do. I need to market expansion, launch new
Jeff Holman (28:26.807)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (28:49.497)
products and programs, create new service offerings, right? That's the stuff that's going to be the what. But in order to grow in scale, what we as COOs do, we focus not just on the what, but more importantly, we focus on how are you doing what you are doing? Because the how you're doing actually is the foundation for scale because you can come up with the what's all day long. Those are all the ideas. These are all the crazy throwing spaghetti to see what sticks and we can jumpstart a lot of those. But if there's no structure in place to implement projects, to hold people accountable,
Jeff Holman (28:51.617)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Holman (29:03.319)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (29:19.428)
To have metrics and KPIs, it's gonna feel like more complexity and that's, like I said, you can't scale complexity. So, Right. Now we're getting back to make it up and make it There you go. How is the make it real? Well, Derek, I've taken up a bunch of your time this morning and I'm so grateful that you shared a bunch of these insights with us. Thank you, Jeff. What would you leave our CEOs with as kind of parting words of wisdom? The one thing that's gonna make a difference in your business or just something to watch out for, what would you tell them?
Jeff Holman (29:26.059)
Right, right. Now we're getting back to make it up and make it real. The how is the make it real. Well, Derek, I've taken up a bunch of your time this morning and I'm so grateful that you've shared a bunch of these insights with us. What would you leave our CEOs with as kind of parting words of wisdom? You know, the one thing that's gonna make a difference in your business or just something to watch out for, what would you tell them?
Derek Fredrickson (29:49.463)
Yeah, I think it's you know, it's as you've grown and scaled your business, I feel like you've had these moments where there's called a light bulb or epiphany, which is, you know, more of the same is more of the same. And in order for me to change, I need to initiate change. And if it may think for them to have a moment of reflection, like maybe I do need an operator to help run my business for me or a COO or whatever that might be.
It's not a transactional decision, right? This is not like I'm just gonna hire somebody else in the team. It's a significant leadership shift in the company, but it's going to allow you to get to where you really want to go without it being dependent upon you. So if you're feeling the weight, if you're feeling the frustration of the day to day, if you're feeling drained because you're involved in these things that are just like in the moment, like, why am I doing this? Why am I dealing with these team members? Why am I dealing with these issues? Why am I dealing? If you're dealing, dealing, dealing.
Take a higher path and look at it from a different perspective and say, in order for you to grow in scale, you need to get out of your own way, bring in somebody to run your company for you, and focus more on the vision and the bigger future. So that's what I would say. Yeah. I love it. And if somebody wants to get ahold of you, contact you, is LinkedIn a place, or where would they do that? They can go to the website. It's called thecoosolution.com. And there's a quiz there if somebody's interested that helps them understand.
Jeff Holman (30:56.766)
I love it. I love it. And if somebody wants to get a hold of you, contact you, is LinkedIn a good place or where would they do that?
Derek Fredrickson (31:12.245)
Maybe I should consider exploring the idea of getting a fractional COO. It's a really good deep dive analysis on where you are, where you want to be. But also it gets under the hood of understanding what's working and what's not working in your marketing, sales, operations, finance team. And through that, could uncover some opportunities and some things that you could consider about whether it's getting support or just, I didn't realize that these are some of the things I need to focus more in order for me to continue to grow. So that's resource if somebody wants to.
Jeff Holman (31:27.991)
Yeah.
Derek Fredrickson (31:42.028)
Take a look at it. Awesome. Yeah. The C O O solution, right? Correct. The coo solution.com. Yep. Awesome. Fantastic. Well, Derek, it's been a pleasure having on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining us and joining us from Paris. Yeah. Thank you, Jeff. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. And to those of you in our audience who joined and listened to the show today, thanks for joining us on the CEO on the breakout podcast and we'll talk to you next time.
Jeff Holman (31:42.326)
Awesome, and that's the C-O-O solution, right? Awesome, fantastic. Well, Derek, it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining us and joining us from Paris.
Yeah. And to those of you in our audience who joined and listened to the show today, thanks for joining us on the CEO on the breakout CEO podcast and we'll talk to you next time.
