What happens when the pressure to make money disappears but the instinct to build does not?
After scaling Stax into one of the largest payment processors in the U.S. and completing a billion-dollar recapitalization, Sal Rehmetullah faced a decision that most founders claim to want but few are prepared for: he no longer had to work.
Without the grind, the calendar, and the identity of “founder and president,” Sal confronted something more destabilizing than operational pressure: the loss of role-based identity. The question was no longer how to scale revenue. It was who he was without the company.
That is the inflection point this episode explores: When you no longer need to build for money, why keep building? And what should you build for?
Founders often assume that liquidity equals relief. In practice, it changes the form of pressure.
At Stax, the pressure was executional: growth targets, hiring, capital strategy, EBITDA discipline. After exit, the pressure became existential.
For over a decade, Sal introduced himself as the founder of Stax. His days were structured. His decisions carried immediate consequence.
When that structure disappeared, so did the default identity.
This is a common but under-discussed transition for scaling CEOs. Financial freedom removes constraint but also removes friction. Without friction, many leaders discover they have been defined more by their role than by their underlying purpose.
Sal’s framing is direct: “You have to reinvent yourself.”
Reinvention, in this context, is an operational decision about how to redeploy energy, capability, and ambition once the original vehicle is gone.
There is a temptation after exit to optimize for lifestyle.
Travel. Time off. Advisory roles. CEO-for-hire opportunities.
Sal considered those paths. He was offered leadership positions elsewhere. But each option came with a tradeoff: control versus comfort.
“I knew I wanted to build again.”
Financial independence created optionality. As he put it, “Freedom of dollar brings freedom.” That freedom sharpened conviction. Without the need to chase an outcome, the only rational reason to build again is because the problem is worth solving.
This reframes reinvention as a strategic choice:
That distinction drives the rest of the story.
At Stax, Sal helped modernize payments for small businesses by connecting online and in-store commerce and introducing subscription-based processing.
After exit, he looked back and asked a different question: why is small business financial infrastructure still so broken?
Underwriting small businesses remains fragmented, manual, and structurally misaligned with how modern operators actually function. Traditional systems evaluate businesses as static entities, while today’s operators generate revenue through Shopify, Stripe, social media, marketplaces, and hybrid models.
The friction is visible to any founder who has tried to apply for credit: duplicative forms, redundant verification, prolonged approval cycles. As Sal noted, “If you try to go sign up for a credit card, it’s going to send you like 50 questionnaires.”
The issue is the absence of integrated infrastructure.
This is where Worth AI enters as a platform ambition.
“Small stuff’s boring. We want to build platforms.”
Platforms require:
One of the more revealing aspects of Sal’s approach is his view on strategy versus execution.
He does not frame Worth AI as a lightning-bolt invention. Instead, he acknowledges that the pain point is obvious. The question is not whether the problem exists, it is whether someone will execute at the level required to solve it.
Worth AI invested heavily in data integration with direct connections to governmental agencies, financial institutions, and public records across jurisdictions. The insight was willingness to do the unglamorous work at scale.
Timing also matters. The post-COVID digitization of government systems and the maturation of data processing capabilities created conditions that did not exist a decade ago.
This reinforces a core principle for scaling CEOs:
Many leaders over-index on having a differentiated idea. Fewer commit to the operational depth required to build infrastructure that others hesitate to attempt.
Why choose this problem?
For Sal, the answer traces back to small business. He grew up in an immigrant household where entrepreneurship was necessity, not aspiration. His parents built businesses without the benefit of institutional support or modern financial tools.
Traditional underwriting models rely heavily on personal guarantees and narrow financial histories. They struggle to evaluate dynamic, digital-first operators. The result is structural friction for the very segment that constitutes the backbone of the economy.
Building a business credit infrastructure that outlasts its founders changes the system, not just a single company’s P&L.
This is a different ambition than maximizing exit value. It accepts:
It also clarifies why the project is worth pursuing despite already having financial security.
Large financial organizations carry years—sometimes decades—of accumulated process. Questions exist on forms because they have always existed. Edge cases drive policy. Compliance teams optimize for risk avoidance, not user experience.
Simplifying a 56-field form into a three-field intake is not merely a UX improvement. It challenges embedded assumptions about risk, verification, and control.
The real work, therefore, is less about code and more about trust:
This is where conviction becomes operational. Reinvention is not just personal. It requires persuading incumbents to reconsider how they evaluate small businesses.
This episode is not about fintech mechanics. It is about post-success decision-making.
Three implications stand out:
For CEOs approaching an exit, or those already through one, the relevant question is not “What’s next?” but “What scale of problem deserves my next decade?”
“If it’s not a hell yes, then it’s usually a no.”
That filter only becomes credible once money is no longer the motivator.
The most revealing part of Sal’s story is that he chose to start again.
Not because he had to, but because he believed the problem warranted platform-level effort.
When the grind is voluntary, the signal is clearer.
For scaling CEOs, this reframes success.
Legacy is constructed through the problems you choose to solve when comfort is available.
For a deeper discussion of identity, execution, and platform ambition in small business finance, the full episode expands on these themes.
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Sal Rehmetullah is the CEO of Worth AI.
He previously helped scale Stax into one of the largest payment processors in the United States, reaching over $160 million in recurring revenue and completing a billion-dollar recapitalization. He is now focused on modernizing small business financial underwriting and building enduring infrastructure for business credit.
Sal's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sal-rehmetullah
Worth AI: worthai.com
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Jeff Holman is a CEO advisor, legal strategist, and founder of Intellectual Strategies. With years of experience guiding leaders through complex business and legal challenges, Jeff equips CEOs to scale with confidence by blending legal expertise with strategic foresight. Connect with him on LinkedIn.
Intellectual Strategies provides innovative legal solutions for CEOs and founders through its fractional legal team model. By offering proactive, integrated legal support at predictable costs, the firm helps leaders protect their businesses, manage risk, and focus on growth with confidence.
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The Breakout CEO podcast brings you inside the pivotal moments of scaling leaders. Each week, host Jeff Holman spotlights breakout stories of scaling CEOs—showing how resilience, insight, and strategy create pivotal inflection points and lasting growth.
Listen and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform:
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Want to be a guest—or know a scaling CEO with a breakout story to share? Apply directly at go.intellectualstrategies.com.
Transcript Summary
Full Transcript (AI generated and might include errors)
Jeff Holman (10:03.344)
Welcome back everybody to the breakout CEO podcast. I'm Jeff Holman, your host, and I'm really glad to be here with Sal Rehmetullah. Sal, thanks for joining me on the show. Yeah, it's great to get into this. I understand that you've done some big things. Your last company, Stacks, you raised, let's see, you had recurring revenue over a hundred million dollars. had raised, think maybe over 200 and sold eventually for
Sal Rehmetullah (10:12.674)
Thanks so much for having me, Jeff.
Jeff Holman (10:33.399)
over a billion dollars. That's no small feat. Congratulations on that. How long ago was that exit?
Sal Rehmetullah (10:39.95)
three years ago.
Jeff Holman (10:41.746)
three years ago. And since then, you've been working on a new company worth AI that I think we're going to talk about a little bit more today.
Sal Rehmetullah (10:49.484)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, super excited to talk about it and just happy to be here.
Jeff Holman (10:53.872)
Yeah, it's great to have you. Tell me what's driving you day to day? What is it that motivates you to get up in the morning and work on hard things like this?
Sal Rehmetullah (11:05.676)
That's a good question. First, I've been just really blessed to have had a ton of personal success, financial success, and I think it just comes back to your purpose.
I know in no way, or form am I comparing myself to Michael Jordan in this, but it's aspects of like Michael Jordan was put on here to play basketball, not baseball. And I just feel like I'm really good at what I do. And so one of those things is how do we solve complex problems in the financial specific industry and specifically for small businesses. I grew up in small businesses my whole life. You know, when you think about entrepreneurship, it's renowned. Now it's like the sexy item. can go on Instagram or TikTok and you see everybody that's talking about.
building some version of the business. My parents migrated here and entrepreneurship was a necessity, right? At the end of the day, we didn't have the college degrees and the things. And so you didn't get the jobs at Lockheed Martin or, you know, at the time, the Microsofts and others that were there. And so in that case, you
owned the laundromat or the convenience store or built whatever business you could. And now, know, full circle, how do we support that, which is frankly the backbone of the United States economy more than anything else, for all these small businesses. And so how do we create that same level of support? So have a true passion to be able to build in that space. And there's so many different areas to tackle. And we chose the financial side of helping supporting small businesses.
Jeff Holman (12:35.698)
Cool. Does that mean being raised by immigrant parents who work extremely hard, the work ethic is just ingrained in you? Did you grow up working in the business that was like just expected, part of what you did and maybe part of who you are?
Sal Rehmetullah (12:50.666)
It's a good question. My parents had us in the business, but not in any way, shape or form because it was like they needed us to do any of it. I think my parents just wanted us to be around. And you're right, the work ethic, my dad woke up at five o'clock in the morning and did the whole thing. And every story or accolade you hear of, somebody came to the United States with $100 in their pocket, that's the traditional story and it's very true. But at the same time,
for us, my dad just wanted us to be close and learn the business. And so he was wildly successful in his entrepreneurial efforts and we got to live great lives and never felt a version of it. But I think we got to learn the goods and the bads of it, right? How many sacrifices they had to make to be able to do it for us to have a great life. And to return back, there were so many things that they didn't get a chance to do. And so when you think about immigrant parents and you see the memes and the stuff out there, that's why education is so important to us is because they didn't have it. So that's what they fought for. They were like, you're
going to go to school, you're going to go to college, you're going to do those things. And that became the pinnacle prize for them to deliver back to us. And now, you know, being able to stand on those footsteps now allow us to be to give back in different ways. And so we definitely were part of the business, got to grow up in it and it does absolutely reflect in the work ethic. So I think it just culturally ingrained, but something that we're super proud
Jeff Holman (14:09.104)
Yeah, and you took it a step further, you and your sister. You guys kept the family initiative going and have built now your second business together. Exited the first one. Did you guys just always get along? Was it kind of natural to work together like this or how did that end up?
Sal Rehmetullah (14:28.844)
Yeah, it's a funny-ass question. think I usually get two questions that are usually the most...
It's one is like, how do you build ability in our business or two, which is like how the FD work with your sister. And one of those two, so I get it. And when you jump into it, you know, we went to 10 schools in 12 years. So the other part of entrepreneurship is it's not always sexy. know, we're growing up with our parents. We migrated where the businesses were and whatever needed to happen. weren't military children or anything along those lines, but we bounced around a lot. We lived all over the U S including abroad to be able to build a great life. And.
Jeff Holman (14:38.642)
You
Jeff Holman (14:57.778)
Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (15:03.81)
that, know, 10 schools, 12 years, you have your sibling as your best friend. And I think that
Jeff Holman (15:08.635)
Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (15:09.376)
natural as part of it and also teaches us to be able to build friends in any community and you know, Suneer and I have a wealth of people that we get along with and it's probably just training from having to make friends in so many different areas and probably why our roots are so deep in Orlando floor now because people always ask like why would you build a start in Orlando? It was the last place we were and we just refused to leave sort of scenario but yeah that's sort of where it all kicked off from and then the other point of it is
Your sibling is the one person you just can't like disown. There's no, you know, whether you have a spouse, you can, you know, have your tiffs or get divorced or do other things like you are blood by the definition when comes to your sibling. And so there's things you can tell your sibling and then still end up at dinner. And so I think that those all sort of make for a really good marriage of building trust.
Jeff Holman (15:57.264)
Yeah, so it was easy then. Everything went really well, Tell us, give us a quick overview of stacks. What are the highlight moments that got you to the point where you were able to exit that business successfully?
Sal Rehmetullah (16:01.738)
I'll.
Sal Rehmetullah (16:12.206)
Yeah, so Stacks is an integrated payments company. Think of it like Square, Stripe, you know, being able to accept credit cards. We're the first ones in the early days to be able to connect, think online and in store. you know, nowadays that's become a lot more relevant. In 2014, being able to buy something online and returning it into the store or buying something from your mobile phone or tap to pay, like all that stuff wasn't really accessible for small businesses. It was acceptable for Macy's, right, of where you can buy something and do it. But the small businesses didn't really have an app.
access to all that and things like yeah, think like Shopify and all that stuff is now relevant, but you couldn't do all that stuff before. And so we went on a journey to connect all this stuff for small businesses and you know, we wanted to find a way for them to do it in an affordable way. And so we're the first subscription based payment provider and what we called Omni-Channel Payments. So how do you do all sorts of payments and
Jeff Holman (16:43.548)
Cause it's plug and play now, right? Versus all custom build back then.
Jeff Holman (16:51.794)
Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (17:05.39)
We onboarded over hundred thousand small businesses 40 billion of payment volume one of the top ten largest processors in the US Probably power so many things that you guys probably interact with today, but you probably don't even know it And yeah, so grew its 500 people raised a bunch of capital you know 160 170 million in recurring revenue and just a really really great business and you know Saving a ton of money for small businesses, but also helping them access to a ton of technology
And so, you know, the business is still around. We're super, we're large shareholders still in it, you know, still actively supported from the sidelines, but it stacks payments and you know, continue to be proud of what we built and fans of the product.
Jeff Holman (17:51.026)
Yeah, but you had you call what you had an exit, right? It just with rolling over. So because you're not running that business anymore, right? How was the exit day of exit? One scale of one to 10. It was a it was a 12, right?
Sal Rehmetullah (17:54.828)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (18:07.222)
Yeah, so I think we did it twice. We recap business two times. I think the first time it's just like, it's a sense of relief first, right? Because you built for so long and you know, it doesn't matter if it's two years for somebody or ten years for somebody, it feels infinite, right? Like just the grind that you're in for so long, even when things are amazing, it's just hard work. And so I think when you get to see, you know, really big numbers on a spreadsheet and really big numbers enter your bank account, you're just, you're pretty dumbfounded.
Jeff Holman (18:24.145)
Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (18:35.118)
and proud in all of the things. And then it's short-lived by the next expectation goalpost, right? And I think that that becomes the sort of the next chase. And we did it again, you know, north of a billion and once again had all of those pieces. But then you find yourself back in sort of that hamster wheel of being like, okay, do I wanna keep doing this? And each time to grow a business between each stage, there's a difference, right? There's a...
growth stage, a venture capital stage, there's a private equity stage, there's a public stage, and I think each one you have to develop into a version that's different. And I think we had reached a stage where we almost knew every employee there and we were entering a private equity pace where, you know.
True dollars and bottom line dollars mattered and EBITDA and all the things that we always thought mattered, but, um, mattered in a different way. And I think that it was probably the time for us to bring leadership that had scale businesses in that format, rather than something that was founder led and, um, always bittersweet because it's like your child's, like if anybody has children, I would imagine it feels like what you do when they go off to college, you just hope you did all the right things and it's still your kid and you're to do everything to support it, but you just can't make all the decisions anymore. So it's a problem.
a little bit of that still to this day.
Jeff Holman (19:50.962)
Well, our third just left this fall to college and you just hope and pray that they will make smart decisions and that they'll want to come back home if they don't make a smart decision, right? So I don't know if it's identical, but man, you're putting a lot out there, I think. And so after that, I think I've heard that you compared selling your business.
Sal Rehmetullah (20:04.354)
But yeah.
Jeff Holman (20:18.63)
to maybe having some hard time, maybe some loss of purpose or, and that's not uncommon, right? How was that for you or what came about after the sale?
Sal Rehmetullah (20:22.444)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (20:29.452)
Yeah, I think Senora and I are slightly different, right? Senora, my sister and partner in the business, I think she'd sacrificed a ton in first time she really got to spend time with her family. She has two girls. She was like, I want to be there to pick up my kids and drop off my kids and do the field trips. And so she really embraced getting back into that. For me at the time, single, no kids.
One boredom kicks in. So it doesn't matter how many times I'm working out or playing pickleball or doing everything under the sun. Um, the other part was just, introduced myself for over a decade as like salaryman, Tula president, founder of stacks, right? Like there's an element of like, okay, that's not me anymore. Who, who am I? Right? There's a personality aspect that just became so a part of you. Um, I was used to 14 hours days. I, I knew where I was having lunch, dinner, travel, like that was booked for a week.
in advance, right? Like you just knew everything and you lived and died by a calendar and insert all this free time, insert no true connection to something that drove so much purpose, you have to reinvent yourself. And I think that was just a struggle, right? I traveled, I played golf.
I did all those things. was offered CEO gigs at other companies and I think it just came down to wanting to control my destiny as always, but I knew I wanted to build again. Didn't exactly know what it was gonna be and I knew wanted to be in this space, but yeah. So it was definitely difficult and took like three to six real months until we came about with Worth and now I'm...
re-energized as ever, but this time, you I can introduce myself more broadly as still a pretty terrible pickleball player, but you know, a father and, know, just somebody that has more to define themselves than that would work, but work's just a big, big sp-
Jeff Holman (22:13.496)
Hahaha
Jeff Holman (22:22.992)
So it's not that you went from your stacks identity to avoid to having to adopt worth so you had another identity. You developed personal identity. I mean, I'm sure you've had it all along, but you develop more aspects of personal identity during that gap period. Do you feel like you're entering your worth chapter differently than you exited your stacks chapter?
Sal Rehmetullah (22:50.71)
Yeah, I think so. think freedom of dollar brings freedom, so there's just reality of what it is. But I think approaching it...
a little bit more gracefully within that, right? I would say I'm probably more conviction this time around than I even had last time around. And it's just as much fun, if not more fun. You know, I'm a student at heart in all the things and the amount of technology and stuff that's happening out there. think just being a part of it is just amazing. But yeah, there's a ton of lessons that are learned from there.
I do think that there's a part of my personality that is worth it. I eat, sleep, and breathe it every day. And I'm sure my 3 a.m. thoughts are still a part of it. But as we had some of the questions early on, my favorite parts of my day are also just waking up and hanging out with my son for an hour. And I think there's just parts of life that have also developed and evolved. So it's not all one-sided, but...
I think the next time around, we sell this thing or whatever happens with this, I'm sure we'll be a different level of transition, but I wouldn't doubt that I'm back with something if that was the case.
Jeff Holman (23:54.224)
Yeah, well, I think capacity expands as you do these things, right? For me, from a child perspective, I remember that when I had my first child and I'm like, man, I must have had a ton of free time because I don't know what I was doing with all the free time before I'm doing day in and day out with a child. And you'd think that I would have learned a lesson. But when I had my second child, I'm like, man.
Sal Rehmetullah (24:12.366)
Yep.
Jeff Holman (24:18.534)
What did I do with all my free time when I only had one child? So I know you're headed that direction.
Sal Rehmetullah (24:24.012)
Yeah, I believe it and can sense it and it's all part of it, but exciting times nonetheless.
Jeff Holman (24:31.014)
Definitely. Well, tell us a little bit about what
is, but tell me also, when did you know, at what moment or what point did you say to yourself, we got something here. This is, this is cool.
Sal Rehmetullah (24:45.614)
Yeah, I'll answer both. So one, you know, going back to sort of the days of stacks, like anything else, you reflect back and we're like, okay, we're a billion dollar company, why weren't we five? For anybody that knows small businesses, small business underwriting is hard.
And the reason it's hard is like Sally's shoe store and Joe's pizza shop are not the same business. They're independent P &Ls, the way that they operate, the way you think about balance sheet cashflow, how they acquire customers are just so different compared to you and me, Jeff. We both have a credit score. We both have a version of income, whether it's W-2 or 1099, and we both have a propensity to pay our bills. We both have a version of a mortgage or a lease or a car payment. So when we think about personal credit score, it's just the historical precedence of paying your bills on time.
whether your bill is $10,000 or $1,000, we could both have an 800 credit score and you may have $50 million in the bank account, I might have $500,000 in the bank account, but we can both have an 800 credit score. Businesses don't operate that way. And so it requires such manual effort to be able to underwrite them.
And so we were like, it's so hard for any business to start anything. You need things which are known as like beneficial owners. You need to verify that the bank statement actually has your name on it and the business's name on it, that you can actually sign for it. And then the way that you operate, what are your terms and conditions and all the things before you even get a simple credit card.
Jeff Holman (26:04.37)
Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (26:04.61)
I can go on my phone right now and sign up for an Apple Wallet credit card in maybe 30 seconds and walk across the street and use it. If you try to go sign up for an American Express or a Venture Spark card or pick the brand, it's going to send you like 50 questionnaires and upload your SS4 form and all this other stuff. And we wanted to simplify that process, right? There's just got to be more modern day of age.
We went out and connected everything under the sun and what's crazy is post COVID, you actually had this world of small business information that actually entered the internet. I know it sounds like it's not that long ago, but secretary of states all had to go online. The IRS had to go online.
payroll, all ADP and ACH all went online. Cause if you remember like PPP loans and all these buzzwords that we'll have, it actually forced this huge amount of information. So we said, well, how do we capture all this information to do that? And so in short, what we do is we do financial underwriting. So full onboarding with three fields. If you can give me your name, address, and either your social or your EIN number, we can fill out almost any financial application for you.
Jeff Holman (26:49.423)
Mm-hmm.
Jeff Holman (27:08.912)
Hmm.
Sal Rehmetullah (27:09.474)
That's applying for a credit card, applying for a loan, applying for anyone else. And we sell the solution set to the large enterprises. So we actually sell to folks like, think, the Bank of America's or the JP Morgan's of the world's or payment providers of the world to enable them to get information from you simply. And that's sort of the aspect. We've been at it for two plus years.
we're on fire winning all those customer bases. And the long-term view is to actually come back to you, Jeff, and say, here's your wallet or token of information, right? And so just like if you ever click like Apple Pay or Shop Pay, you kick one button and being done, why can't you just click one button and apply for something? They should have all that information that you can control and support you over to be able to.
Jeff Holman (27:49.818)
Yeah. To use an analogy, I recently broke my foot. I had to go and have foot surgery and all this stuff, right? And every time I go into the doctor's office, that's partly why I'm shifting around trying to keep my foot in the right spot here. Every time I go into the doctor's office, they'd be like, okay, fill out this form. I'm like, I just filled this form out online. I just filled this form out at the reception desk. I just filled this form out wherever. Like literally it would fill the same form out five times for
for one appointment. And I know you're not in the medical field, but I think a lot of people feel that frustration. Like this is not efficient. There's no reason in today's, with today's technology, this should have to happen. You're doing that, simplifying that in the financial side of things and working with large, with the financial service providers to leverage that for the benefit of the consumers.
Sal Rehmetullah (28:45.966)
You nailed it, right? It's the same way, like, pick whatever bank you work at, wherever you have a business checking account or even a checking account. If you go apply for a credit card, they will literally ask you for exactly, we said, a brand new field that you're gonna have to type in. Jeff, you're gonna retype your name. like, don't you have all this information? Like, you've already done all this for me. Why am I, just because I want a new product, I have to start this whole process again? And so I think that's what we're trying to change and it's been great so far.
Jeff Holman (28:59.467)
yeah.
Jeff Holman (29:12.07)
Well, what's the traction been like? And to get back to the former question, when did you say to yourself, you know what, this is not just a good idea, like this is actually working.
Sal Rehmetullah (29:24.494)
Yeah, I'd say, you know, the world's largest providers, in the world now use our products. So from payment companies to large banks, I think, it sounds, it's like walking. If it's like me asking you, does the DMV suck, right? Like there's not a person that's going to disagree with you. And that's how it feels when we take our product in there. I think people are more perplexed that nobody's ever done it.
So it's more simplicity. are just like, why hasn't anybody done it? How did you do it? So a lot of the questions we get asked are just like, how? And I think that that is where you really feel like you have something. Because when you think about this, simplest ideas are usually the best ones. And having a business credit score onboarding thing, I think that people really resonate with because they get it pretty instantaneously.
And to your point, within two minutes, you can reference it back to the medical aspect within it. You understand the pain point, regardless if you work with small businesses or not. And I think that that is a story that we get to hear all the time. And I'd say most of the conversation we have on the sales side, most people are asking on how to work with this compared to trying to what feature set or functionality that they're comparing to. They're just really trying to figure out where they can plug this in within their ecosystem to have a better experience.
Jeff Holman (30:40.252)
Well, I'm really curious, I mean, it seems like an obvious pain, like you said, and a huge pain. It's across the board, every small business owner, every individual consumer, like it's everybody's experience. How are you able to be the first one to solve this? Is nobody else doing this?
Sal Rehmetullah (30:55.542)
Sure. Nobody's doing it to the level we do. I think that there are point solutions across the board. There are things called KYC, Know Your Customer, KYB, Know Your Business. There's a bunch of these data providers, but nobody provides a holistic approach to it. And so we said we're going to go directly to all these integrations. We went directly to Integrate with the IRS. We had to go through every 50 secretary of states plus the postal service. We had to do this over 140 countries. So we spent
$20 million just building data and data interactions. It's not a small feat to start off with. This is a big problem, but once you're able to crack it, I think that's a big thing. The other big thing is timing, right? So you can hear the buzzwords of AI and large language models and all that stuff. The ability to process the amount of information we're talking about has fairly recently become available.
And so those all also have to play into it. It's not that, you know, you somebody can have a grand idea and not be it. You can bring an iPhone and, you know, the 1500s, but you will be useless. Right. So you have to have relevant technology and relevant ideas at the right times. And that's where I'd say we're also at this perfect center point where we understand the pain points we've learned from both the small business. And then you have the technology available and the ability to do it. All the governmental agency and stuff that have usually been very like, we will build it or very shielded.
are now a lot more open to this style of information as well and working with folks like us because they want to create a better experience for not only their own customers but internally as well.
Jeff Holman (32:25.694)
the wave swell is active now and you're catching the right wave at the right time. Well, so you don't play small, do you? You're like, we're gonna tackle the biggest issue that we can think of with some of the biggest players out there. What attracts you to going so big?
Sal Rehmetullah (32:43.106)
I think this time around, a lot of it wasn't monetarily driven, right? It was like building legacy. And for us, can we build long tail five, seven, 10 years, a singular wallet or a business credit score that outlives us, right? So all of us can come on the scene and talk about our FICO credit score and ability to sort of think about our credit worthiness in that way.
I think we wanted to build something that was legacy driven, not just for ourselves, but that can actually drive small business. And so I think that's probably the biggest motivator. There's multiple things that come out from it, equality of lending, clear, transparent decision-making, the ability to help you and your own business coach and learn to stay in business, financial literacy. There's so many outputs of what we believe our product ends up driving. And so at the core of it, we just believe it supports a small business.
I think that was just important to us. And small stuff's boring. I'm not here to build features or products. We want to build platforms. And that's what gets us excited.
Jeff Holman (33:44.688)
Yeah, that makes sense. And when you say legacy, it makes me think back to earlier in our conversation, talking about your parents. What would something like this done for your parents? Would it have been a big thing? And is that kind of when you say legacy, like you're thinking, man, we can make a difference for a lot of people and the majority of who are making up the economy of every country around the world. Is that what legacy is?
Sal Rehmetullah (34:11.374)
Yeah, it absolutely is. And when you think about it, you know, for anybody that owns small businesses, like there's a clause called like a personal guarantee. You have to still use the same FICO credit score that we talked about that we're trying to differentiate for even in your business world. And so it becomes really tough when a business can't stand by itself. And then you insert the amount of entrepreneurs that are growing in today's day and age, whether you're an influencer, whether you're at C-Shop, whether it is that...
grow, how do you support these businesses to grow? You don't have 10 years of financial history and business plans and the alternate levels of data that exists from your Shopify store or your 20 million Instagram followers. How do you monetize that to a traditional bank? Right? You can't. It's $20 million.
Jeff Holman (34:53.489)
Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (34:55.31)
20 million influence followers, it probably makes hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? And so like being able to do that is difficult. So you have to think about the way that the world is evolving and we believe we can become that new standard to understand businesses broadly and support those small businesses than the general P and L terms and the things that were built.
over a hundred years ago to be able to stand and that hasn't changed. And so how do you enable a lot of this? think it's the legacy we want to build behind to support them. Because it would have been very impactful for folks that were my parents that didn't have a history of W-2 income and that couldn't use, you know, they moved from box on Karachi. whatever the term for W-2 is coming from there are irrelevant in this country, right? So how do you think about those things to help support them?
Jeff Holman (35:40.178)
Yeah, I mean, it seems like a very worthwhile, impactful, meaningful journey that you're on. What's been maybe the biggest obstacle that you've had to deal with and the insights that you've used to overcome that in this business?
Sal Rehmetullah (35:57.614)
You know, there's always compliance and fear, right? Like anything else, when you simplify things, there's somebody in the corner that, you know, built this 56 page document that they make you fill out every time, right? So it's like, how can we go from this mini binder to one page in six fields, right? And it's tough. It's tough because you have to sort of rethink and retrain.
what you're trying to get to. And usually when you ask people why this question is there, it's, they probably don't even know because somebody added it five years ago, seven years ago, a predecessor that is no longer even part of the company. And so everybody builds everything for edge cases and you sort of have to think the opposite way of saying, hey, let's not do education. Let's handle edge cases with edge cases. And I think that's probably the biggest challenge. So change management, I think is what it comes down to. It's just like helping people understand that.
They're not going to lose their shirt on something. It's not going to be a change. It's just an alternate way to get the same answer. And then if you're looking at it from the answer backwards, does it still achieve the same thing? And that's the innovators and the folks that you want supporting and driving the organization. And we've been blessed to have 30 to 40 new customers that are all on that journey with us that are part of the global 2000 that are all hoping for that same change.
Jeff Holman (37:13.874)
Well, that's no small feat though. mean, we often hear about tech debt, right? You build your platform in the wrong stack and you have to rebuild it later because it's not convertible or scalable or whatever. I think what you're talking about, if I can put it this way, it sounds like there's a ton of regulatory debt out there. The way these regulatory agencies have done stuff, have created, like you said, questions that just persist because nobody knows if they have authority to get rid of that question or not.
So they just leave it and it compounds. You know, I've seen the same thing in like patent portfolios that we've managed for clients. And I'm like, guys, you're not using these patents anymore. And they're like, yeah, but I don't want to tell the board that we're going to drop a patent. So let's just keep paying the fees on it and we'll just be there. like, understand, that's, know, it's this technology debt or, but in your case, regulatory debt. How, like that's...
It makes sense that it's there. How have you guys dealt with that effectively or differently from other people?
Sal Rehmetullah (38:18.156)
Yeah, I think the one big thing is people want to change. And the reason they want to change is, like in our world, fintechs are starting to kick their ass, right? So I think that there's so much disruption happening.
pick any one these providers. If you're in the credit space, there's new credit cards that are coming out that are instantaneous. If you're in the banking space, there's so many online banks without a single branch that have come out that are instantly opening up bank accounts, check accounts, so they're finding alternative methods. And so these large behemoth customers that have hung on so much need to adopt.
Right. And so the way you do it is most people historically have always said we're going to build it. I think they've realized that the pace of technology, they're just not going to be able to. So your two choices are either by competitors or you buy the solution sets. And I think that's the world we're seeing. You know, it's going back to 2003, had, you know, Mark Benioff inventing, know, coming in and talking about Salesforce and all the things that you think about, like, what is this cloud? Right. And how are we talking about a CRM system? We believe we're in that same stage, which is just like a completely
Jeff Holman (39:12.081)
Yeah.
Sal Rehmetullah (39:20.012)
different viewpoint of a similar solution set or problem set that you're going to have to rethink the way that you do it. And I think that most of these organizations are now in the willingness place to definitely hear and or actually action.
Jeff Holman (39:34.236)
That's really interesting because it seems like if you had been five years ago trying to do this or eight years ago trying to do this, you would have had a lot easier time building it outside of the partnerships with the largest entities out there because they might have said, yeah, we're not doing that. We're going to do it ourselves. But now it's almost counterintuitive because so many people are building new technologies that aren't partnered, you know, to go do what you...
maybe would have thought to do 20 years ago, to go to them and say, let's partner with you, we'll build this for you. Is it a little bit counterintuitive now to be going and building with them as opposed to building outside of them?
Sal Rehmetullah (40:17.07)
It absolutely is. I think, look, we've built the core foundational piece, but all the large providers have their own spin and what makes them special. But I think it is, but I think that's just the way the world is. And I think the new leadership that's continuously coming to place.
not to compare the Blockbuster Netflix analogy, but they don't want to be that. They want to make sure that they don't get beaten by some incumbent or some fintech that's coming out there, and how do you have to stay relevant? And I think consumers are finally demanding a lot too, specifically in the small business era. In the consumer market, we...
click Uber Eats and all this stuff and expect a car to show up in two seconds. If it says 11 minutes, we're like canceling and overriding another one. Like think about that, right? And so that same philosophy is now spreading to small businesses, which is like, well, why am I waiting for so long? Why am I doing this? And that control is shifting. And when that control starts to shift, they have to adapt. Otherwise they will lose that market share. And so the people that are dominant that market share for so long.
are making sure that they stay at the top of it and relevant from the lessons that they've seen their predecessors go to.
Jeff Holman (41:21.274)
Yeah. What do you think as you're growing this, what do you think the one or two most impactful actions are going to be for you for the next few years?
Sal Rehmetullah (41:31.178)
I think it's making our customers, raving fans, right? So the first of it, we gotta make sure that the core customers that are coming through are wildly successful, but.
I think as we continue to do it, being able to deliver that value back to the small business. So I think over time, the small business will be able to see their worth while it be able to see transparently. Like when you think about credit scores have been out for, I don't know, 50 years, they're only became relevant in the last 10. And that's because things like Credit Karma and Discover and all these people came out and said, Hey, Jeff, let me show you what's happening in the credit score. Let me show you what impacted it. Cause you got educated on it. Well, that's the same level we're going to have to bring to small business. Suzy's cupcakes. Let me tell you why you're not getting a loan or why you're only getting $5,000 from credit card.
because you have concentration risk on these two customers because you don't have this information on that. And so as you can use this information to re-educate the small business to frankly transform themselves, you're going to end up creating a better cycle for them. And so that's what we're hoping for in short order, and we believe we're right on the path to do it.
Jeff Holman (42:25.874)
Well, that's fantastic and sounds like hugely impactful to get something like that going. I'd love to ask you one last question. Well, maybe two. One would be, what's the one thing that you think a CEO trying to follow a similar path might do that can leverage some of the insights and successes you've had? But before getting to that.
Is WorthAI the type of platform that somebody with a small business should go to today, sign up for? Like who should be checking this out?
Sal Rehmetullah (43:00.102)
I appreciate that. Today, we don't support small business directly. We do have wordscore.com, which you can sign up for as a wait list to get your score. We're still probably a year away from it. But right now we're really focused on the enterprise and because we need the large folks to adopt it for it to be relevant for the small business. If we give it to the small business, it's great, but they just can't action it. And so we wanted to make sure that the large folks are adopting and then come back. So a full network within it.
But yeah.
Jeff Holman (43:29.488)
Is there something that small business could do now to support this? Cause it sounds like if it is there, is there, should they be asking their banks, Hey, how are we doing this? Or have you checked this out? Is that a
Sal Rehmetullah (43:37.006)
So any place that you guys bank or get credit cards from or get financially underwritten that takes and sucks, ask them about using Worth or one of those solutions sets. It's always great to do it. And if you're a regional bank, a large bank, a credit provider, anybody that does any type of financial underwriting that's listening to this, come visit on our website.
Jeff Holman (44:00.228)
I'm going to connect you with my awesome banker that we've used extensively. So he's at a fantastic regional bank. I'll make that connection later.
Sal Rehmetullah (44:05.802)
I love it. We're always looking for new prospecting. then your other question, look, you can, for advice for CEOs, right? I think it's kind of what you talked about was a strategy or execution early on. I think you gotta take the leap of faith in the next acute, right? I don't believe that.
any of us, least for me, we're gonna invent something that's never been thought of. There's playbooks that have been done. And I think there's a lot of great copy and paste material that exists out there. I think you have to do what you do better than others. I think you can find things to do it. And so I think learning from and listening to autobiographies and all the other people that you may see, how do you learn from those lessons? Make them your own, make them your own flavors. But I think that's just what it comes down to. so find the right mentors and the people that have been there and walk the trails behind you and sure,
going to break off into your own own areas that make you special and different but there's a great path ahead to be able to use a lot of the people that have been in front of us to be able to continue to execute.
Jeff Holman (45:05.778)
Well, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on the show, Sal. It's been, and maybe we should have had your sister on here too. It would have been fun to have the two of you together. But it's been great to hear your insights and really appreciate what you've shared with the audience.
Sal Rehmetullah (45:22.295)
Thanks so much, Jeff.
Jeff Holman (45:23.686)
Yeah, thank you. And to our audience, thanks again for joining us on The Breakout CEO. We'll see you next time.
